Blizzard lfr is a que so why not m0?

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11/12/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Knicknak
It doesnt make sense to say this cant be in a queue because it would be too hard and no one would complete the content and complain. If that's the level you have to adjust to I dont have faith in the future of this game. I dont see why it's so hard to just go back to Heroic or create your own group.
See Cata. Queued content is made to be realistically completable by the vast majority of players, and when Blizzard makes queued content that doesn't follow that norm, then complaints follow and it gets nerfed to the ground to make coordination largely irrelevant.

Coordination still matters in M0. Especially if it gets in the LFG system and now you have a full group of people in the minimum i-level trying to complete them. The reason they are easy now is because the majority of groups have at least one overgeared player if not more.
11/12/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Blitzkareeg
No, mythic0 is not that much harder than heroic.
Yes, actually, it is harder. I'm not saying it's Mythic raid vs. Normal raid different, but there are mechanics that NEED to be followed and there are mobs that should be CC'd.
11/12/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Blitzkareeg
Mythic0 should be on the Que, because it will bring so many more players up into the mythic+ key system as they gain the skills in mythic0, so they can rise to that next level.
Really? Because that worked out so well with LFR helping people rise to that next level of formal raiding.

For that matter, how would you even know? Unless the forums are already going wonky, you've never done a heroic or mythic dungeon this expansion. Get some experience before you start making judgments on the difficulty of different levels of dungeons.


First please share hard numbers behind "people" we spend alot of time talking about generics and hyperbole. I'd love to understand the actual numbers behind LFR. I'd surmise it's not doing THAT bad since it's still in the game.

Having something in a queue has NOTHING TO DO WITH completion, level of skill or teamwork. Its automated means to get into content ... which is easier than putting a manual group together or trying to join a pre-made.

What I'm hearing now is effectively wow players are stupid and if you put mythic 0 in a queue they will cry it's too hard. Tell me where I'm wrong
11/12/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Blitzkareeg
No, mythic0 is not that much harder than heroic.
Yes, actually, it is harder. I'm not saying it's Mythic raid vs. Normal raid different, but there are mechanics that NEED to be followed and there are mobs that should be CC'd.
11/12/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Blitzkareeg
Mythic0 should be on the Que, because it will bring so many more players up into the mythic+ key system as they gain the skills in mythic0, so they can rise to that next level.
Really? Because that worked out so well with LFR helping people rise to that next level of formal raiding.

For that matter, how would you even know? Unless the forums are already going wonky, you've never done a heroic or mythic dungeon this expansion. Get some experience before you start making judgments on the difficulty of different levels of dungeons.


First please share hard numbers behind "people" we spend alot of time talking about generics and hyperbole. I'd love to understand the actual numbers behind LFR. I'd surmise it's not doing THAT bad since it's still in the game.

Having something in a queue has NOTHING TO DO WITH completion, level of skill or teamwork. Its automated means to get into content ... which is easier than putting a manual group together or trying to join a pre-made.

What I'm hearing now is effectively wow players are stupid and if you put mythic 0 in a queue they will cry it's too hard. Tell me where I'm wrong
No, don't be lazy, find a group
11/10/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Naugi
Mythic+ community isn't exactly the warm/welcoming/inviting bunch. Decided I'd rather play something else than to put up with it.


This. but i would not have been so nice about it. Never been in one that was did not have at least 1 @#$%^&*. Will never do any more mythic dungeons, not worth putting up with it. So no don't make them able to be qued for.
11/12/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Knicknak
It doesnt make sense to say this cant be in a queue because it would be too hard and no one would complete the content and complain. If that's the level you have to adjust to I dont have faith in the future of this game. I dont see why it's so hard to just go back to Heroic or create your own group.
See Cata. Queued content is made to be realistically completable by the vast majority of players, and when Blizzard makes queued content that doesn't follow that norm, then complaints follow and it gets nerfed to the ground to make coordination largely irrelevant.

Coordination still matters in M0. Especially if it gets in the LFG system and now you have a full group of people in the minimum i-level trying to complete them. The reason they are easy now is because the majority of groups have at least one overgeared player if not more.


Now that -- queued content is made to be realistically complete able-- makes sense, in a way.

I'd counter argue that all the claims of failed LFR runs, etc would make that goal of queued content an abject failure. So why do they still support it? Maybe a blue can answer that

To make something complete-able by everyone the content would have to be face roll easy to allow the worst player in the pool to complete. I dont believe that was the goal or intent of LFD.

LFR I give more leniency because I surmise it is there for me to SEE the content so I can complete the expansion story. I expect it to be watered down. I expect a few failures out of lack of player commitment (AFK).

The content should be challenging, less difficult than higher tiers and should be used to understand the mechanics and to improve for the next tier. That's what I use and appreciate LFR for.

I still should be able to random queue AS AN OPTION for mythic 0 without a guarantee for completion or success.

How can you truly succeed if you never failed?
11/12/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Knicknak
First please share hard numbers behind "people" we spend alot of time talking about generics and hyperbole. I'd love to understand the actual numbers behind LFR. I'd surmise it's not doing THAT bad since it's still in the game.
Re-read what I said. I never implied that LFR is doing bad or is bad for the game. I said that LFR hasn't done much to encourage players into harder difficulties.
11/12/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Knicknak
Having something in a queue has NOTHING TO DO WITH completion, level of skill or teamwork. Its automated means to get into content ... which is easier than putting a manual group together or trying to join a pre-made.
Take a look at Cataclysm and what happened with heroic dungeons at the beginning of the expansion. History itself is my proof.
11/12/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Knicknak
What I'm hearing now is effectively wow players are stupid and if you put mythic 0 in a queue they will cry it's too hard. Tell me where I'm wrong
What I'm saying is that not everyone is good at following mechanics and using crowd control. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way that you play. The problem comes when you pair those people with others in content that pretty much requires following mechanics and using crowd control. People rightly get frustrated and call for something to change.
11/12/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Knicknak
It doesnt make sense to say this cant be in a queue because it would be too hard and no one would complete the content and complain. If that's the level you have to adjust to I dont have faith in the future of this game. I dont see why it's so hard to just go back to Heroic or create your own group.
See Cata. Queued content is made to be realistically completable by the vast majority of players, and when Blizzard makes queued content that doesn't follow that norm, then complaints follow and it gets nerfed to the ground to make coordination largely irrelevant.

Coordination still matters in M0. Especially if it gets in the LFG system and now you have a full group of people in the minimum i-level trying to complete them. The reason they are easy now is because the majority of groups have at least one overgeared player if not more.


Now that -- queued content is made to be realistically complete able-- makes sense, in a way.

I'd counter argue that all the claims of failed LFR runs, etc would make that goal of queued content an abject failure. So why do they still support it? Maybe a blue can answer that

To make something complete-able by everyone the content would have to be face roll easy to allow the worst player in the pool to complete. I dont believe that was the goal or intent of LFD.

LFR I give more leniency because I surmise it is there for me to SEE the content so I can complete the expansion story. I expect it to be watered down. I expect a few failures out of lack of player commitment (AFK).

The content should be challenging, less difficult than higher tiers and should be used to understand the mechanics and to improve for the next tier. That's what I use and appreciate LFR for.

I still should be able to random queue AS AN OPTION for mythic 0 without a guarantee for completion or success.

How can you truly succeed if you never failed?

11/12/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Dewclawz
No, don't be lazy, find a group


Why? Because that's what you want? I could easily say dont be elitist queue with everyone else. Both comments make wild assumptions and force a particular path instead of simply providing and option
11/12/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Knicknak
First please share hard numbers behind "people" we spend alot of time talking about generics and hyperbole. I'd love to understand the actual numbers behind LFR. I'd surmise it's not doing THAT bad since it's still in the game.
Re-read what I said. I never implied that LFR is doing bad or is bad for the game. I said that LFR hasn't done much to encourage players into harder difficulties. You seem like you're just jumping to conclusions so you can froth at the mouth defending everyone from "elitists".
11/12/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Knicknak
Having something in a queue has NOTHING TO DO WITH completion, level of skill or teamwork. Its automated means to get into content ... which is easier than putting a manual group together or trying to join a pre-made.
Take a look at Cataclysm and what happened with heroic dungeons at the beginning of the expansion. History itself is my proof.
11/12/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Knicknak
What I'm hearing now is effectively wow players are stupid and if you put mythic 0 in a queue they will cry it's too hard. Tell me where I'm wrong
What I'm saying is that not everyone is good at following mechanics and using crowd control. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way that you play. The problem comes when you pair those people with others in content that pretty much requires following mechanics and using crowd control. People rightly get frustrated and call for something to change.


Sorry on my phone. Hard to read and edit.

A tool by itself cant encourage anything. It can somewhat give incentive but at the end of the day a player is going to do what they want. I dont see how this plays into Mythic 0 being in a queue though.

I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?

If you dont want to play with people who dont follow mechanics, create your own group. How does that not solve the problem? Or what other problem does that cause?
11/12/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Knicknak
It doesnt make sense to say this cant be in a queue because it would be too hard and no one would complete the content and complain.

It's not so much it shouldn't be queued for -- the simple fact is that history shows us that this content will be nerfed. Based on that history, many of us don't want this to be queued for.

Difficulty is a factor, but it's really the root cause of the main complaint many of us share. The lowest common denominator is something they make content for. It's totally fine, but we cannot guarantee Mythic dungeons won't be nerfed for their sake. And that's the issue -- don't nerf our challenge because it's too hard for some players.

FWIW, I'm okay with queues for Mythic 0. However, based on the history of Blizzard's actions towards queuable content, and the simple fact that Mythic 0 is the baseline for Mythic+ content, I want to preserve the challenge of Mythic+.
as a casual who did mythic 0's

no you wont have a good time
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?

To give you a decent comparison.

Cata Heroics were about as difficult as a Mythic 4. Stonecore in particular was challenging for many tanks. Vortex Pinnacle was very hard if you didn't know about mob movement.
11/12/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Warpstone
11/10/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Naugi
Mythic+ community isn't exactly the warm/welcoming/inviting bunch. Decided I'd rather play something else than to put up with it.


This. but i would not have been so nice about it. Never been in one that was did not have at least 1 @#$%^&*. Will never do any more mythic dungeons, not worth putting up with it. So no don't make them able to be qued for.


This is another related aspect to queues which while subjective is a strong reason behind the push for queues.

Meaning I'm saying most people (who queue anyway) would accept a Mythic 0 queue and its failures and wipes to avoid the perceived mythic community toxicness.

Looking at it objectively I see Blizzard created content that's appealing to opposing playerbase. On one side you have the "expert" players who really want to work together and progress. On the other side you have cautious casuals who are interested in attempting the challenge but may not be as good. Casuals arent as open to ask for groups as the other crowd which is why a queue would work for them, with the following assumed condition that the content is the content and if you cant complete you must get better.
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?
That's exactly what happened. Read this, and if maybe read some of the comments and that should give you some information. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/2053469/wow-dungeons-are-hard. I played a Disc Priest in Cata. Healing LFD groups those the first couple of weeks was a study in pure masochism.
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
If you dont want to play with people who dont follow mechanics, create your own group. How does that not solve the problem? Or what other problem does that cause?
I won't be using LFD for M0 if it comes out. I only run them when it's the weekly quest, and even then I primarily run keystones for it with a premade group. The problem that it causes though is that people will call out for nerfs. Not everyone is good at following mechanics and using crowd control. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way that you play. The problem comes when you pair those people with others in content that pretty much requires following mechanics and using crowd control. People rightly get frustrated and call for something to change.

I find this quote interesting and relevant to this thread. This is a Ghostcrawler quote from his Wow, Dungeons are Hard! article: "PUGs have their place -- don’t get me wrong. But we don’t want to sacrifice dungeons being fun and challenging for organized groups in order to have everything be conquered by any possible group. Make sense?"
11/12/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?

To give you a decent comparison.

Cata Heroics were about as difficult as a Mythic 4. Stonecore in particular was challenging for many tanks. Vortex Pinnacle was very hard if you didn't know about mob movement.


Thank you.

Now for context what was the difficulty gap from normal to heroic in cata? If heroic was mythic +4 was normal a mythic +2 or lower?

I can see a problem if the gap was too wide between the tiers. But that would be more tuning than an issue and perhaps a limitation of the tool. Meaning back then I'd assume there was no pre-made group tool so the entire spectrum of the playerbase (casual up to expert) were forced to play together

I feel there have been changes and improvements since and that this example in the past shouldnt be used as basis point to stop something in the present. It should be considered so the same mistakes arent made but it looks like that has been done (now have pre-made, more granular dungeon tiering with mythic+).
11/12/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?

To give you a decent comparison.

Cata Heroics were about as difficult as a Mythic 4. Stonecore in particular was challenging for many tanks. Vortex Pinnacle was very hard if you didn't know about mob movement.


I was active in cata and enjoyed queueing for heroics throughout it.

The general argument I'm seeing is everyone thinks the community is too stupid (which I disagree with) now so we must rely on manual groups that statistically prefer to overgear content and reject fresh max levels.

Which in turn is an argument against mythic only dungeons.

I can't help but project a feeling of entitlement from the opposition to keep their content exclusive.
11/12/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Dewclawz
No, don't be lazy, find a group


you dont have a raider io high enough to join my m0 group.
11/12/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Kelgar
11/12/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Dewclawz
No, don't be lazy, find a group


you dont have a raider io high enough to join my m0 group.


Dang. It's like you don't even need a raider io score to create your own group.
11/12/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Yusegoo
The general argument I'm seeing is everyone thinks the community is too stupid (which I disagree with) now so we must rely on manual groups that statistically prefer to overgear content and reject fresh max levels.
No one has called anyone stupid that I've seen in this thread. If they did, then that's their bad. Every player has different skills and weaknesses. The problem comes when you mix different skills of players together in content that pretty much requires particular skills (skills that a random group may not have). Then have that content queueable, i.e. achievable by any possible group at the lowest allowable gear level.
11/12/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Yusegoo
I can't help but project a feeling of entitlement from the opposition to keep their content exclusive.
No one cares that Timmy wants to run a M0 dungeon. What we care about is when Timmy can't follow mechanics and never uses CC, thus making the run harder than it should be, which in turn makes Timmy's group members frustrated and angry enough to call for the content to be nerfed.

Asking for people to follow mechanics and use crowd control to make pulls easier for the group is NOT being exclusive and entitled.
11/12/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Knicknak
Now for context what was the difficulty gap from normal to heroic in cata? If heroic was mythic +4 was normal a mythic +2 or lower?

It's about the same. They didn't scale with levels like they do now.

Grim Batol was notoriously difficult as well. A bad dragon run made it a nightmare.

Normal was closer to Mythic 0. Heroic was Mythic 4.

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