Blizzard lfr is a que so why not m0?

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11/12/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Yusegoo
The general argument I'm seeing is everyone thinks the community is too stupid (which I disagree with) now so we must rely on manual groups that statistically prefer to overgear content and reject fresh max levels.
No one has called anyone stupid that I've seen in this thread. If they did, then that's their bad. Every player has different skills and weaknesses. The problem comes when you mix different skills of players together in content that pretty much requires particular skills (skills that a random group may not have). Then have that content queueable, i.e. achievable by any possible group at the lowest allowable gear level.
11/12/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Yusegoo
I can't help but project a feeling of entitlement from the opposition to keep their content exclusive.
No one cares that Timmy wants to run a M0 dungeon. What we care about is when Timmy can't follow mechanics and never uses CC, thus making the run harder than it should be, which in turn makes Timmy's group members frustrated and angry enough to call for the content to be nerfed.

Asking for people to follow mechanics and use crowd control to make pulls easier for the group is NOT being exclusive and entitled.


This misses the point. No one ever asked for anything else. It keeps looping back to it because people believe the community at large is too stupid now to do so without enacting their own screening process.
11/12/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Littlefella
That's true it is mythic 0, but you have to separate it at some point. It's not my call but if mythic 0 is changed then it will be "but mythic 1 is not so bad it should be in a queue." and so on and so forth.


There's a big difference there, because now keys are at stake, and we're not talking about changing the key system.

11/12/2018 08:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
11/12/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Blitzkareeg
No, mythic0 is not that much harder than heroic. Theres just a timer.

There's no timer in Mythic 0.

Normal -- Learn the basics of your role in the group. (Includes knowing that you should be using your utility.)
Heroic -- Learn how the mechanics really work. (This is your practice stage.)
Mythic -- Execute your role and execute the mechanics.

This holds true for Raids too.


The way the early game showers you in gear makes Normal and Heroic irrelevant.

However they could require completion of some type of achievement involving all heroic dungeons, maybe even time achievement, to show that you are familiar with the dungeon layout and mechanics before allowing you to queue for M0.
Hey lets queue everything. Put queues in the forums, on the AH. Queues for everything.
11/12/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Emt
Hey lets queue everything. Put queues in the forums, on the AH. Queues for everything.


there would be ways of making this work. I know there is a dash of sarcasm in your post but you could code the game that you need so many clears at the lower level and a certain item level to advance into a higher que. For instance if you clear normal 5 times and have an item ilvl of 325 (hypothetical) you could then que into a heroic. We could still build our own groups if we like but it would allow for advancement in other areas without. This obviously would not be good with keystones. If you look at all the data, you could easily code something along these lines.
11/12/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Yusegoo
This misses the point. No one ever asked for anything else. It keeps looping back to it because people believe the community at large is too stupid now to do so without enacting their own screening process.

It doesn't require thinking poorly of anyone to understand a change as requested replaces the player screening process with an automatic queue. As the system currently exists, players use their own screening process. That's the system that is being asked to be replaced by an automatic screening process. LFG *replaces* the players' screening process.
11/12/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Viviala
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?
That's exactly what happened. Read this, and if maybe read some of the comments and that should give you some information. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/2053469/wow-dungeons-are-hard. I played a Disc Priest in Cata. Healing LFD groups those the first couple of weeks was a study in pure masochism.
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
If you dont want to play with people who dont follow mechanics, create your own group. How does that not solve the problem? Or what other problem does that cause?
I won't be using LFD for M0 if it comes out. I only run them when it's the weekly quest, and even then I primarily run keystones for it with a premade group. The problem that it causes though is that people will call out for nerfs. Not everyone is good at following mechanics and using crowd control. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way that you play. The problem comes when you pair those people with others in content that pretty much requires following mechanics and using crowd control. People rightly get frustrated and call for something to change.

I find this quote interesting and relevant to this thread. This is a Ghostcrawler quote from his Wow, Dungeons are Hard! article: "PUGs have their place -- don’t get me wrong. But we don’t want to sacrifice dungeons being fun and challenging for organized groups in order to have everything be conquered by any possible group. Make sense?"


Thanks for the link. I agree wholeheartedly. The same way you will not use LFD for M0 I can say I wont use pre-made for M0 (if it comes out). Both of us are happy and it is because it's an option allowing players to decide which to use.

Ghostcrawler is right. Just because I advocate M0 in LFD doesnt mean I want the content nerfed so I can complete. That's like cheating to me.

I suck at Mythics but love running them. Never did above a +4. But would never have gotten that far if I didn't keep pushing through my losses for a chance at that next key.

It gives me that old school feel of being punished until you get good enough over time to overcome.

LFR doesnt give me that challenge but does allow.me to play through the raid (multiple times) at least getting used to the environment if not the mechanics
11/12/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Starrjasmyne
11/12/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Yusegoo
This misses the point. No one ever asked for anything else. It keeps looping back to it because people believe the community at large is too stupid now to do so without enacting their own screening process.

It doesn't require thinking poorly of anyone to understand a change as requested replaces the player screening process with an automatic queue. As the system currently exists, players use their own screening process. That's the system that is being asked to be replaced by an automatic screening process. LFG *replaces* the players' screening process.


LFG replaces the screening process for those who choose to use LFG. If I wanted my own screening process I would make a pre-made. You are never forced to use LFG and I'd argue those who use it dont care about the screening.
11/12/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Emt
Hey lets queue everything. Put queues in the forums, on the AH. Queues for everything.


If it's an option why not? It wouldn't change anything you do because you would opt not to use it right?
I'd agree to Qs on the condition that any cry baby whining about nerfs gets a one week game suspension with no appeal. Forums also.
11/12/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Starrjasmyne
That's the system that is being asked to be replaced by an automatic screening process. LFG *replaces* the players' screening process.


Doesn't replace. Its an alternative to. If you like being screened by other players, you can still go that route. Its just M0.
11/12/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Naugi
11/12/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Littlefella
That's true it is mythic 0, but you have to separate it at some point. It's not my call but if mythic 0 is changed then it will be "but mythic 1 is not so bad it should be in a queue." and so on and so forth.


There's a big difference there, because now keys are at stake, and we're not talking about changing the key system.

11/12/2018 08:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
...
There's no timer in Mythic 0.

Normal -- Learn the basics of your role in the group. (Includes knowing that you should be using your utility.)
Heroic -- Learn how the mechanics really work. (This is your practice stage.)
Mythic -- Execute your role and execute the mechanics.

This holds true for Raids too.


The way the early game showers you in gear makes Normal and Heroic irrelevant.

However they could require completion of some type of achievement involving all heroic dungeons, maybe even time achievement, to show that you are familiar with the dungeon layout and mechanics before allowing you to queue for M0.


I do agree with this. I tend to out gear the PVE content to the point where the only natural progression is high level mythics and raids. But I'm not ready for that content because I haven't practiced enough. I can't practice in higher keys to get better without bringing down the rest of the group so you hit a conumdrum.
11/12/2018 03:42 AMPosted by Yusegoo
11/11/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Yusegoo
The arguments against it are so lame.

Argument 1) It would be too hard.
Counter 1) Heroics were the old hardmode and were queue-able when they were--people still did them.

Argument 2)
People would wipe over and over and it would just be painful to do,
Counter 2) Then don't do them. Others will. Feel free to continue to PuG using your own means.


Several pages of post and no one has countered this.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769749626?page=8#post-145
11/12/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Knicknak
I heard stories but wasnt there in Cata. Can you synthesize for me. The headline I heard was heroic queues were too hard or overturned and the community revolted and Blizz nerfed everything is that accurate?

To give you a decent comparison.

Cata Heroics were about as difficult as a Mythic 4. Stonecore in particular was challenging for many tanks. Vortex Pinnacle was very hard if you didn't know about mob movement.


To build off of this, Vanilla dungeons were about the difficulty of today's Mythic 0 at 325 ilvl. There weren't a lot of boss mechanics, but you had to have careful control of every pull in the instance because they all hit like trucks, threat generation past two targets was extremely difficult, and almost every humanoid mob would flee at low health. Today's Normal/Heroic difficulties didn't exist at all. Additionally, overworld mobs posed a significant threat and did not hit like wet noodles. Aggroing three usually meant you were dead. Overworld elite areas were common, and elites could pretty much only be soloed by classes with significant self-healing, kiting, or pet tanks. That was the difficulty curve -- even a casual leveling up had to have basic awareness and ability to execute your class (unless you were a hunter, lol) so by the time you stepped into even a leveling dungeon you probably had at least an okay idea of how to use class mechanics to keep control of a tight pull.

BC followed the same standard, and also introduced Heroics which were about a Mythic 4-5 depending on which one it was. H Shattered Halls even had a timed run. It was also the first xpac where it finally became common for 5-man bosses to have mechanics more complicated than an add spawn.

Wrath introduced the queue, and suddenly Normal and Heroic both went down to about what we see today. It also started the trend of easy epics -- prior packs, all blue gear was considered very good (which is why the ICC dungeons released late in the expansion feel so overtuned while leveling up today -- they were set to be borderline faceroll content...for someone about 40 ilvl over what's actually attainable in the squished scaling).

Cata went back to BC's standards, and people who coasted on WOTLK's facerolls for two years revolted until it got nerfed down to Wrath levels. Difficult content outside of raids vanished entirely. We haven't had queueable content of that difficulty since.

Even the Cata Timewalking event a month ago exhibited this. Granted, End Time actually was overtuned for a mixture of poorly-tested stat squishing (not many people queue while leveling up for late-xpac heroics only available for one level) and the same late-xpac ilvl scaling reasons as the ICC problem I mentioned above. But the rest of it got nerfed too within days for daring to still vaguely threaten people with avoidable mechanics -- and that was the version of those dungeons that had already been nerfed.

For all of you saying you want it queueable and not nerfed...well, in a vacuum I'm with you TBH. I loved queable pre-nerf Cata Heroic. But we've already been shown we can't have nice things. If this gets into LFD I give it half a month at best before the whiners win again.
In my opinion if anyone wants to make a group of elite players no one is stopping you from doing that, absolutely no one. The elites can pick and chose as they want.

Then what is the problem by letting the casuals wipe for 2 hours if they chose to do so? I lose a lot on battlefields and I still do them. Winning or losing is not why I play... it is the challenge and the fun. I can have fun losing, and I learn. Just me!
To build off of this, Vanilla dungeons were about the difficulty of today's Mythic 0 at 325 ilvl. Today's Normal/Heroic difficulties didn't exist at all.

BC followed the same standard, and also introduced Heroics which were about a Mythic 4-5 depending on which one it was. H Shattered Halls even had a timed run.


If I recall correctly, there was a timed run in Strat in Vanilla too. I can't remember if it was live or undead side, but we did it once. It was intense, but we succeeded. Quite a lot of fun. :)

11/12/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Sevaryn
Cata went back to BC's standards, and people who coasted on WOTLK's facerolls for two years revolted until it got nerfed down to Wrath levels. Difficult content outside of raids vanished entirely. We haven't had queueable content of that difficulty since.


I'm trying hard to remember, but I think Ghostcrawler's "Dungeons are Hard!" blog post came out and then within about 3 to 5 days, there were heavy nerfs to all Cata dungeons on the PTR. They really didn't stand their ground for very long, honestly. Later on, I recall Ghostcrawler saying something like: "We thought people would rise to the challenge, but turns out they don't." I'm too time-strapped to hunt that down right now.
11/12/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Tristia
If I recall correctly, there was a timed run in Strat in Vanilla too. I can't remember if it was live or undead side, but we did it once. It was intense, but we succeeded. Quite a lot of fun. :)


It was undead side (Rivendare), part of your tier 0.5 questline. I never managed it myself until I could solo it in...I think Wrath pre-patch? When prot warriors suddenly turned into total badasses.

But again, tier 0.5 was basically the highest gear and likely the only epics you were ever going to see outside of a 40-man raid guild or high-rank pvp honor/rep gear. That was how different the gearing standards were. Blues were good and purples turned heads.
The hardest think about mythic-0 is getting into groups as a dps.

I honestly can not tell the difference between mythic-0 and regular heroics.
11/12/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Sevaryn
11/12/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Cyouskin
...
To give you a decent comparison.

Cata Heroics were about as difficult as a Mythic 4. Stonecore in particular was challenging for many tanks. Vortex Pinnacle was very hard if you didn't know about mob movement.


To build off of this, Vanilla dungeons were about the difficulty of today's Mythic 0 at 325 ilvl. Today's Normal/Heroic difficulties didn't exist at all. Additionally, overworld mobs posed a significant threat and did not hit like wet noodles. Aggroing three usually meant you were dead. Overworld elite areas were common, and elites could pretty much only be soloed by classes with significant self-healing, kiting, or pet tanks. That was the difficulty curve -- even a casual leveling up had to have basic awareness and ability to execute your class (unless you were a hunter, lol) so by the time you stepped into even a leveling dungeon you probably had at least an okay idea of how to use class mechanics to keep control of a tight pull.

BC followed the same standard, and also introduced Heroics which were about a Mythic 4-5 depending on which one it was. H Shattered Halls even had a timed run.

Wrath introduced the queue, and suddenly Normal and Heroic both went down to about what we see today. It also started the trend of easy epics -- prior packs, all blue gear was considered very good (which is why the ICC dungeons released late in the expansion feel so overtuned while leveling up today -- they were set to be borderline faceroll content...for someone about 40 ilvl over what's actually attainable in the squished scaling).

Cata went back to BC's standards, and people who coasted on WOTLK's facerolls for two years revolted until it got nerfed down to Wrath levels. Difficult content outside of raids vanished entirely. We haven't had queueable content of that difficulty since.

Even the Cata Timewalking event a month ago exhibited this. Granted, End Time actually was overtuned for a mixture of poorly-tested stat squishing (not many people queue while leveling up for late-xpac heroics only available for one level) and the same late-xpac ilvl scaling reasons as the ICC problem I mentioned above. But the rest of it got nerfed too within days for daring to threaten people with avoidable mechanics -- and that was the version of those dungeons that had already been nerfed.


So Vanilla WoW was like Everquest (which I played). I can confirm as I played WoW classic and had an absolute blast. I loved being able to mix and max my skill points across all three warrior specs giving me customization options.

WoW has practically moved on from the hardcore crowd to be way more open to the general casual crowd. I cant lie, I do like me some BfA with all the things they are offering but I now know I will be on Classic from day 1 going warrior and afflock
Yeah this is why I keep saying we need to differentiate between casuals and idiots. Casuals just play less, but they're still perfectly capable of, like, pattern recognition, caution, and instructions, and they had two solid xpacs to show they could get !@#$ done. We'd get to a boss, briefly explain the fight before the pull, and more often than not kill it without problems. Quality of life changes happen for casuals. Stuff like the Cata nerf doesn't happen for casuals.
11/10/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Kelgar
let players advance more by making m0 a que.the only place to go to advance is warfronts and lfr.a lot of players would like to run mythic dungeons.since lfr is a que why not m0?

Personally, I don't see why it couldn't be a queue. It isn't much harder than heroic. Maybe up the ilvl required to queue for it. Especially with all the free 370's and 340's ilvl gear raining from the sky, it shouldn't be an issue to all it to be queuable.

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