Blizzard lfr is a que so why not m0?

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11/11/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Drkenypowers
11/11/2018 06:04 PMPosted by Aewendil

BFA mythic dungeons are easier than heroics in every pre-legion expansion. And perhaps more importantly, people outgear them within hours of hitting 120 now. You can literally spam warfronts for 3 hours and be in full 340 gear. That process in WOTLK took months.


Heroics were only really difficult in BC, and only then for players who didn't have basic T4 gear. If you had a T4 geared tank and a decent rest of the group, they were just as trivial as they are today.


Well, no. But that was mostly due to now removed game mechanics that existed in TBC. Namely that threat drops were very common. It didn't matter how geared your tank was if he got feared (in Steamvaults) or blinded (in Mana Tombs) or mind controlled (in Slave Pens). Mobs would drop aggro off the tank and 1 shot your whole group if that happened. If you didn't CC the mind controlling Naga in Slave Pens then you would wipe, it didn't matter if you were in full tier 6. Which is why people stacked CC in TBC dungeons and why it was basically impossible to get a spot in a dungeon as DPS if your class didn't have CC.

These sort of mechanics no longer exist in dungeons and that is why. Every DPS class that can't tank now has some form of CC and again, that is why.
I have the perfect solution to regular mythic dungeons. Simply make your own group, or look to join someone's already forming. Worked everytime for me!
11/11/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Yayayayayaya
If a person can't handle looking for and joining an M0 group through the LFG system, I would question their ability to do one if it was queueable.


People don't like being declined from groups. It's not rocket science. Fear of social rejection is a real thing.
then make your own groups. get some gumption and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
11/11/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Xecks
<span class="truncated">...</span>

People don't like being declined from groups. It's not rocket science. Fear of social rejection is a real thing.
then make your own groups. get some gumption and pull yourself up by the bootstraps.


Anyone that says this obviously hasn't tried making a group for a M0 lately.

It's really not as simple as you say. You'll wait a very long time. And unlike waiting in a queue, you have to watch the LFG tool the whole time in case a tank queues. If every single person took your advice and formed their own group, then all you'd have in group finder is a bunch of single person groups looking for 4 other members.

Queues are just a superior way of forming groups for trivial content, which is what M0 is.

You can imagine LFG as an auction, whereas queues are a rationing system.

In LFG a person with high ilvl will have no issues getting into any group, and the LFG system will be great for them. On the other hand, a person with lower gear (or a less desirable spec/class) will get passed over time and time again for people with higher ilvl/meta class.

You can choose to ignore this issue if you want, but it won't go away. People like queues because you are guaranteed a spot in a queue if you are willing to wait. You are not guaranteed a spot in LFG, you can spend all day applying to groups and never get in one. And forming your own group, contrary to the claims of people on here, is not always a solution either. Some dungeons are simply not popular unless there's a WQ in them, and you will frequently wait 30 minutes or more for a group even if you start your own. During which time you have to stare at the LFG tool the whole time.
11/11/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Aewendil
That's the point though. The people who hate LFG/LFR don't want *anyone* to have that option. They oppose it mostly out of spite.


Untrue. We just realize that anything that ends up queueable eventually ends up getting nerfed into pure faceroll because the people that insist everything be available in it also tend to whine that it's too hard.

11/11/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Yusegoo
Argument 1) It would be too hard.
Counter 1) Heroics were the old hardmode and were queue-able when they were--people still did them.


And they promptly got nerfed through the ground. They ended up having to make Mythic specifically because by then New Heroic was a step below Old Normal. Right now it's gone even further -- M0 is, at worst, Old Normal. The OP of this very thread asked on the very first page to nerf it further along with making it queueable.

11/11/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Yusegoo
Argument 2) People would wipe over and over and it would just be painful to do,
Counter 2) Then don't do them. Others will. Feel free to continue to PuG using your own means.


Then what exactly ARE we supposed to do? Because the result of 1) and 2) is

3) When bads whine about how hard their new queueable content is, it gets nerfed and challenging content disappears. People who aren't too lazy to move out of the fire have to retreat yet another content tier. Worse, M0 is the baseline all the M+ multiplies from -- so if that gets nerfed, so does the entire progression after it too.

No, I don't care if queueable content merely exists. I care that ever since Cata, bads whine their way into entire floors of content getting turned into the same trivial faceroll under a different name. The line's been drawn. Please leave it there. It's not about exclusion, it's about wanting to have compelling, satisfying challenges still exist in the abstract somewhere.
11/11/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Amaunator

You didn't have to do the mechanics is WotLK heroic dungeons when they were queueable. But you still do in M0 dungeons now. One was a certain that you were going to clear, the other is not.


You had to do them in Halls Of Reflection, Pit of Saron and Forge of Souls. You didn't have to do them in the heroics that were released 3 raid tiers previous, sure. But all of those dungeons were queueable.

In fact the reason deserter debuff was added to queues was that people would immediately leave the 3 hard ones if they got them as a random.


It was added because people would leave oculus. Because that place sucks. But I will admit the ICC dungeons were harder and you could fail them even when you could queue them.

Blizzard changed the queuing game design in Cata when super casuals couldn't clear any Heroic dungeons. Because they were actually hard.

What happened to them? They were nerfed into the ground. That's why anything queueable is a guaranteed victory today. Because they have to be accessible to everyone if they are queueable.
11/11/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Aewendil
That's the point though. The people who hate LFG/LFR don't want *anyone* to have that option. They oppose it mostly out of spite.


Untrue. We just realize that anything that ends up queueable eventually ends up getting nerfed into pure faceroll because the people that insist everything be available in it also tend to whine that it's too hard.


This is simply not true at all. The only time dungeons have been nerfed is in Cataclysm. And there's no basis for saying that's because of LFG. Cataclysm dungeons were just overtuned, period.

When else have dungeons been nerfed?

Also your claim is just disingenuous as hell. M0 are already trivially easy. Nerfing them is something that just isn't going to happen.

People like you just don't like the fact that queues exist, period. You can't post a single time without disparaging the people who want them. You just hate casual players, period, and oppose anything that might benefit them.

Then what exactly ARE we supposed to do?


You don't do M0 dungeons now, and even if you did do them, it wouldn't be for the challenge, because they are already unchallenging.
11/11/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Amaunator

Blizzard changed the queuing game design in Cata when super casuals couldn't clear any Heroic dungeons. Because they were actually hard.

What happened to them? They were nerfed into the ground. That's why anything queueable is a guaranteed victory today. Because they have to be accessible to everyone if they are queueable.


Cata dungeons, even after the nerfs, were still harder than current M0 dungeons. Especially the troll dungeons. Blizzard didn't see fit to nerf them any harder than that, so why would nerf current M0 dungeons, which are already easy than the queueable heroic from any previous expansions? Cata timewalking dungeons are still harder than BFA M0 dungeons, and them being queueable hasn't led to them being nerfed any further.

The pretend "fears" of elitists are just ridiculous and nobody takes them seriously. At last Sevaryn can be somewhat honest in his open disdain for "bads" as he calls them. The rest of you are hiding behind wild hypotheticals.

No, I don't care if queueable content merely exists. I care that ever since Cata, bads whine their way into entire floors of content getting turned into the same trivial faceroll under a different name.


This only happened in your imagination. It must be pure hell to toss and turn at night, having nightmares about the army of bads ruining content that you never do.
11/11/2018 06:43 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Amaunator

Blizzard changed the queuing game design in Cata when super casuals couldn't clear any Heroic dungeons. Because they were actually hard.

What happened to them? They were nerfed into the ground. That's why anything queueable is a guaranteed victory today. Because they have to be accessible to everyone if they are queueable.


Cata dungeons, even after the nerfs, were still harder than current M0 dungeons. Especially the troll dungeons. Blizzard didn't see fit to nerf them any harder than that, so why would nerf current M0 dungeons, which are already easy than the queueable heroic from any previous expansions? Cata timewalking dungeons are still harder than BFA M0 dungeons, and them being queueable hasn't led to them being nerfed any further.

The pretend "fears" of elitists are just ridiculous and nobody takes them seriously. At last Sevaryn can be somewhat honest in his open disdain for "bads" as he calls them. The rest of you are hiding behind wild hypotheticals.


I would expect them to make them more accessible because that is the design philosophy for queueable content. Blizzard have said this. You really must be living under a rock or really good troll. Either way. GG.
11/11/2018 06:49 PMPosted by Amaunator
11/11/2018 06:43 PMPosted by Aewendil
...

Cata dungeons, even after the nerfs, were still harder than current M0 dungeons. Especially the troll dungeons. Blizzard didn't see fit to nerf them any harder than that, so why would nerf current M0 dungeons, which are already easy than the queueable heroic from any previous expansions? Cata timewalking dungeons are still harder than BFA M0 dungeons, and them being queueable hasn't led to them being nerfed any further.

The pretend "fears" of elitists are just ridiculous and nobody takes them seriously. At last Sevaryn can be somewhat honest in his open disdain for "bads" as he calls them. The rest of you are hiding behind wild hypotheticals.


I would expect them to make them more accessible because that is the design philosophy for queueable content.


M0 dungeons are already plenty accessible. They are already easier than WoD heroics were. And they were queueable.
11/10/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Khëmical
If Mythic was Q-Able I would certainly love to participate. Currently I avoid the hassle and time of trying to get into a group on the Group finder. I find the hoops needed to satisfy some of the elitist players isn't worth sitting in front of the computer waiting only to be declined for whatever reason.

I'm one that enjoys the ease of LFR however much of a train wreck it can be, because sometimes the train does reach the station and the loot achieved.


I have an idea that will blow your mind.

Make the mythic group yourself.

Why do you people play a MMO if you dont want to interact with other players?
11/11/2018 06:54 PMPosted by Mêphiston
11/10/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Khëmical
If Mythic was Q-Able I would certainly love to participate. Currently I avoid the hassle and time of trying to get into a group on the Group finder. I find the hoops needed to satisfy some of the elitist players isn't worth sitting in front of the computer waiting only to be declined for whatever reason.

I'm one that enjoys the ease of LFR however much of a train wreck it can be, because sometimes the train does reach the station and the loot achieved.


I have an idea that will blow your mind.

Make the mythic group yourself.

Why do you people play a MMO if you dont want to interact with other players?


There's not much interaction in the group finder. Unless you count seeing "declined" dozens of times, or having nobody at all sign up as being "interaction".

You can actually still interact with people in queueable content too. The chat window isn't removed in dungeon finder.

I'm sure LFG tool is indeed very useful for 376 ilvl Blood Death Knights though. 330 shadow priest? Not so much.
11/11/2018 06:39 PMPosted by Aewendil
This is simply not true at all. The only time dungeons have been nerfed is in Cataclysm. And there's no basis for saying that's because of LFG. Cataclysm dungeons were just overtuned, period.


This !@#$ is exactly what I'm talking about.

They were fine. Overtuned means the gear gate is too high, which it wasn't -- they just punished you for not doing the fight. People cleared them fine when they paid attention, sometimes used CC, did mechanics, watched their pulls and kill areas, and generally didn't stand in horrible exploding death. Back before Wrath we called that common sense, and we expected it even of casuals (which I was at the time).

You know why people thought they were overtuned? Because they were so used to Wrath's neverending faceroll that they felt slighted when something wasn't a free win anymore. So they whined until they got their way, and you never needed to see big nerfs since then because we haven't even had hard heroics since. I will remind you that the OP of this very thread didn't even get 10 posts down before asking for M0 to be nerfed too.

And as for casuals? They're generally chill folks quite capable of learning and improving. I see and give advice to them while leveling up alts, and we've ended up clearing the old ICC 5-mans a few times (which under the new scaling actually are overtuned because they were set to end-of-xpac epic ilvl that's no longer attainable within that level range). When they wipe they usually ask what happened and listen. WoW needs more casuals.

What we don't need is the brain dead potatoes who actively destroy content for the rest of us.
11/11/2018 06:39 PMPosted by Aewendil
This is simply not true at all. The only time dungeons have been nerfed is in Cataclysm. And there's no basis for saying that's because of LFG. Cataclysm dungeons were just overtuned, period.


This !@#$ is exactly what I'm talking about.

They were fine. Overtuned means the gear gate is too high, which it wasn't -- they just punished you for not doing the fight. People cleared them fine when they paid attention, sometimes used CC, did mechanics, watched their pulls and kill areas, and generally didn't stand in horrible exploding death. Back before Wrath we called that common sense.

You know why people thought they were overtuned? Because they were so used to Wrath's neverending faceroll that they felt slighted when something wasn't a free win anymore. So they whined until they got their way, and you never needed to see big nerfs since then because we haven't even had hard heroics since.


You're completely ignoring that dungeons at the time were not meant to be as challenging as mythic raids. They were way too hard for the group of players that dungeons are usually aimed at. That's why they were nerfed. It had nothing to do with queues.

Because they were so used to Wrath's neverending faceroll that they felt slighted when something wasn't a free win anymore.


No, they felt slighted because what used to be their endgame was made drastically more difficult to be beyond their capabilities, leaving them with nothing. Heroic raiders still had heroic raids. They didn't do the dungeons anyway. Who was the target audience for Cata heroics? Nobody.

The only reason it was an issue for you then is because you felt entitled to have all content in the game aimed solely at you. Nothing for other people. Even the content that you never did should be tuned towards you anyway, because anyone not as good as you didn't deserve any content.

This is no longer an issue with M0 since there is already an infinitely scaling higher difficulty of dungeons that would not at all be affected by any changes to M0.

So again you're just saying that you don't think there should be any content at all for casual players. If they aren't mythic raid quality players, they can eat a @%!#!!#@. Even though those players never actually do the content being discussed in this thread.

If mythic dungeons were the highest level of dungeon content in the game, then you would have a point. But they are not, so you don't. There is an infinitely scaling M+ system out there for players like you.
11/11/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 06:54 PMPosted by Mêphiston
...

I have an idea that will blow your mind.

Make the mythic group yourself.

Why do you people play a MMO if you dont want to interact with other players?


There's not much interaction in the group finder. Unless you count seeing "declined" dozens of times, or having nobody at all sign up as being "interaction".

You can actually still interact with people in queueable content too. The chat window isn't removed in dungeon finder.

I'm sure LFG tool is indeed very useful for 376 ilvl Blood Death Knights though. 330 shadow priest? Not so much.


Then
Make
Your
Own
Group

Are you slow?
11/11/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Aewendil
You're completely ignoring that dungeons at the time were not meant to be as challenging as mythic raids. They were way too hard for the group of players that dungeons are usually aimed at. That's why they were nerfed. It had nothing to do with queues.


The whole point of heroic dungeons back in BC was specifically to be an alternative to raiding. For people like me who weren't in raid guilds at the time, that was the endgame. That was literally their purpose. Part of the reason I gave up and started raiding in Wrath was because there was nothing else interesting to do.

And you don't think casuals do mythic content? You may owe them an apology.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/achievements/achievement-category-15285

No mythic dungeon in the game has less than 50% completion among all 120s. Casuals are quite capable of learning and playing competently, don't need to be hardcore raiders to prove it, and they deserve far better than to be compared to the loudmouthed whiners that get stuff nerfed. Of course I could've told you that six or seven expansions ago, as casual players were completing considerably harder stuff back in vanilla and BC too. I was one.

As for what happens if/after M0 gets the nerf bat? First of all, M+ gets inflated by a few key levels because M0 is the baseline for all its multipliers. And even if it still scales infinitely, that doesn't mean anything worthwhile about it does. Rewards stop at +10. The sense of progression ends.
11/11/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Mêphiston
11/11/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Aewendil
...

There's not much interaction in the group finder. Unless you count seeing "declined" dozens of times, or having nobody at all sign up as being "interaction".

You can actually still interact with people in queueable content too. The chat window isn't removed in dungeon finder.

I'm sure LFG tool is indeed very useful for 376 ilvl Blood Death Knights though. 330 shadow priest? Not so much.


Then
Make
Your
Own
Group

Are you slow?


If everyone having trouble getting into groups made their own group, it wouldn't solve the problem at all. You'd just have 4 times as many groups. The amount of groups is limited by the amount of tanks. Making your own group doesn't cause any extra groups to be formed. All it does is get you a spot instead of someone else.

It's you who is slow if you can't understand that.

Queues alleviate this problem by offering incentives for people to spec other roles.
11/11/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Sevaryn
11/11/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Aewendil
You're completely ignoring that dungeons at the time were not meant to be as challenging as mythic raids. They were way too hard for the group of players that dungeons are usually aimed at. That's why they were nerfed. It had nothing to do with queues.


The whole point of heroic dungeons back in BC was specifically to be an alternative to raiding.


If BC dungeons were meant to be an alternative to raiding, then they would have dropped gear equivalent to raid gear. They did not.

What you meant to say is that BC dungeons became an alternative to raiding for people that were locked out of raiding by the attunement system. A system that was abandoned in WOTLK and never seen again.

Part of the reason I gave up and started raiding in Wrath was because there was nothing else interesting to do.


No, the reason that you started raiding in Wrath is that the removal of attunements finally made it possible for people who didn't play in Vanilla.
11/11/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Sevaryn

No mythic dungeon in the game has less than 50% completion among all 120s. Casuals are quite capable of learning and playing competently, don't need to be hardcore raiders to prove it


Not sure why you are telling me this, I already know that mythic dungeons aren't hard. The hardest part of them for most people is finding a group in the first place.

As for what happens if/after M0 gets the nerf bat? First of all, M+ gets inflated by a few key levels because M0 is the baseline for all its multipliers. And even if it still scales infinitely, that doesn't mean anything worthwhile about it does. Rewards stop at +10. The sense of progression ends.


Also no idea why you're still talking about this either.

There's no reason to believe that Mythic dungeons would get nerfed if they were queueable. And even if they really did feel the need to adjust it, they'd just do it by adding Luck Of The Draw to random groups, which wouldn't affect the base numbers for M+ at all.
If there are so many players that desperately need a queue, that means that there's enough people to make their own groups. But just can't be bothered to do so.

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