Kaldorei Revenge:How long?

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11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
If you delude yourself thinking that making Hordies miserable will magically fix the horribad writting skills of the lore dev team, well... you may find yourself with a nasty surprise in the future


hmm,you are right.
it sucks that the only way to tell blizzard that what they are doing sucks is by unsubbing, i already have done that, i am coming back when the next raid opens, get my aotc and see how it goes, because otherwise it would be pretty hard to keep my interest in this xpac, i don't want to feel like a damn masochist. hopefully it gets better in the future, we will see.
11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
Making the players extra tribal and extra nasty to each other won't fix anything nor much less encourage a healthier game environment unless this game just retains sociopaths, period.
Blizzard strongly disagrees with you. That's why we are getting the 8.1 "content patch of lies" where each team sees the other do evil things that factually impossible based on what the other sees.

Be the hate filled sociopath that Blizzard wants you to be! Or stop giving them money and play a game that makes you feel good about yourself.
11/14/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Akiyass
11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
Dear


Being condicending while claiming to be on my side makes me inclined to not take you seriously...

11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
just as we Hordies have felt since the War of Thorns.


Then stop playing Horde is you feel bad for playing Horde.


Or the story could be fun for everyone?
11/14/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Verlius
Or the story could be fun for everyone?


Night Elves have been waiting for that for 14 years.
11/14/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
Making the players extra tribal and extra nasty to each other won't fix anything nor much less encourage a healthier game environment unless this game just retains sociopaths, period.
Blizzard strongly disagrees with you. That's why we are getting the 8.1 "content patch of lies" where each team sees the other do evil things that factually impossible based on what the other sees.

Be the hate filled sociopath that Blizzard wants you to be! Or stop giving them money and play a game that makes you feel good about yourself.


Such cruelty 3slot... don't remind me on those wasted tokens I could have used to buy my Brutosaur instead of literally dumping them for this trash of an expac.... T.T
11/14/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Akiyass
11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
Dear


Being condicending while claiming to be on my side makes me inclined to not take you seriously...

11/14/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Ariël
just as we Hordies have felt since the War of Thorns.


Then stop playing Horde is you feel bad for playing Horde.


If by "condescending" you mean not cattering to your sociopathic ways, then yes... I may be a "condiscending btch". I do care for the feelings of Anya et al more than a keeping a childish score that ultimately will end up vindicating the actual responsible party of this mess in the first place.

Also, playing Alliance won't ever make ne happy. I don't find enjoyment in cardboard made generic characters and narratives I find more boeibg than watching paint dry. I (different from you aparently) don't play Horde cause they "win more" (heck I could go without A LOT of those winnings) but because I find the characters and overall narrative waay more relatable and estimulating for my brain, no more and no less.
11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
estimulating for my brain


Well, you sure need that.

11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
ne


Me*

11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
boeibg


Boring*

11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
aparently


apparently*

11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
estimulating


Stimulating*

11/14/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Ariël
sociopathic ways


Slow down there, Shane Dawson.
...

The two sides lost the same number of zones: one. There is now fighting in other zones, but if the war tables are to be believed it is the Alliance that is largely on the counter-offensive. This is supported by what is happening with the next patch, with fighting in Darkshore and Dar'Zalor.

The Alliance and Horde both took out a zone and a capital. It's true that the Alliance failed in Anduin's declared victory condition in Lordaeron, but that's because his stated goal was the removal of Sylvanas. But they still razed the zone and forced the Horde to blow up their own city. The Horde didn't manage to get the win they were looking for either.

Don't tell me taking out Undercity (not to mention reclaiming Stromgarde) haven't been Alliance fantasies since Vanilla. In all that time, did we see a single thread with Horde players pining to destroy...Teldrassil?


At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).


Where is it actually stated that the Alliance lost massive casualties, like, say, more than the Horde, at Undercity?

In the recent cinematic we learn that Stormwind has taken massive casualties in the war, but there have been many fronts. And we can also assume that the Horde has taken similar casualties, given that the Alliance is still able to launch a major offensive (and, again, if the war table is to be believed have been launching most of the offensives since Teldrassil).

We are outright told that the Alliance is on the verge of winning the entire war, so much so that some Horde characters are talking about suing for peace...but according to this thread, the Alliance never gets any wins. How does that compute? How is the Alliance on the verge of winning the entire thing, then?
11/14/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Carmageddon
...

At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).


Where is it actually stated that the Alliance lost massive casualties, like, say, more than the Horde, at Undercity?

In the recent cinematic we learn that Stormwind has taken massive casualties in the war, but there have been many fronts. And we can also assume that the Horde has taken similar casualties, given that the Alliance is still able to launch a major offensive (and, again, if the war table is to be believed have been launching most of the offensives since Teldrassil).

We are outright told that the Alliance is on the verge of winning the entire war, so much so that some Horde characters are talking about suing for peace...but according to this thread, the Alliance never gets any wins. How does that compute? How is the Alliance on the verge of winning the entire thing, then?


some people just want the story to end now I guess, rather than you know at the end of the xpac.
11/14/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Carmageddon
...

At the cost of massive casualties. As I wrote about previously, in this thread, the developers are trying to show that the Alliance lost massive numbers of troops there, so much so that had Anduin been in a modern military he would have been bounced out for negligence. Blizzard, as I noted with the Twitch announcement, also have stated it was an Alliance loss. When combined with the Blizzcon statement means that that this was a null-event (loss for both parties).


Where is it actually stated that the Alliance lost massive casualties, like, say, more than the Horde, at Undercity?

In the recent cinematic we learn that Stormwind has taken massive casualties in the war, but there have been many fronts. And we can also assume that the Horde has taken similar casualties, given that the Alliance is still able to launch a major offensive (and, again, if the war table is to be believed have been launching most of the offensives since Teldrassil).

We are outright told that the Alliance is on the verge of winning the entire war, so much so that some Horde characters are talking about suing for peace...but according to this thread, the Alliance never gets any wins. How does that compute? How is the Alliance on the verge of winning the entire thing, then?


The framing of the Alliance post BfL is massive numbers of coffins littering SW Harbor, and yes more than the Horde lost. (seeing as I don't recall Orgrimmar having coffins littering the place. The decisive Alliance turning point is 1) Tyrande's invocation of the Nightwarrior, coupled with the 2) Battle for Dezar'alor. Prior to this, the Horde is on the rise, with the Alliance forces on their backfoot, as evidenced by Sylvanas' quest start text at the beginning of 8.2
11/14/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Saiphas
The framing of the Alliance post BfL is massive numbers of coffins littering SW Harbor, and yes more than the Horde lost. (seeing as I don't recall Orgrimmar having coffins littering the place. The decisive Alliance turning point is 1) Tyrande's invocation of the Nightwarrior, coupled with the 2) Battle for Dezar'alor. Prior to this, the Horde is on the rise, with the Alliance forces on their backfoot, as evidenced by Sylvanas' quest start text at the beginning of 8.2


The problem I have with this is both one of timing and of framing.

You say "The Horde is on the rise" prior to the events of 8.1... but I don't see that reflected anywhere. No Horde NPC says "Let us press our advantage while the Alliance licks their wounds" or some such. No Alliance NPC says "Our forces are stretched thin, <name>. We're going to have to make some hard choices as to where we deploy." No, the Horde strikes at Teldrassil, and the Alliance retaliates at Lordaeron Keep. Narratively, this is framed as both sides fighting to a draw, and then turning to seek allies. You may recall the quibbling over how bloody Lordaeron was for the Alliance - it seemed generally agreed-upon that the Horde withdrew with few losses, true, but many posters argued persuasively for the fact that the Alliance had withdrawn out of Blight range before Sylvanas strikes her gambit. Blizz did us no favors here, keeping the casualty count ambiguous, and offering conflicting statements as to who "won" - first the Horde won, then nobody won...

So both sides go to the new zones and play through those stories. I feel it is generally agreed that the Alliance makes out far, far better than the Horde does - the Horde's war campaign is laughably ineffective, and the Zandalari are shown as too weak to stop Blood Troll incursions, further weakened by Zul's coup, and weakened further still by the assault on their capital. Conversely, the Alliance brings Kul Tiras together, redeems Jaina, ousts the dissidents, and finds the lost fleet. In other words, the Horde already feels like it's losing through questing, whereas the Alliance is strengthening - and remember, we came into this situation from a muddled military standpoint, without very clear indications as to who is winning. If you take the map table missions as canon, the Alliance is already fighting back and winning during 8.0.

Now, consider the timing of 8.1 releases. The Alliance is clearly winning. Dazar'alor is raided. Rastakhan is killed. The Golden Fleet is crippled. Some losses are incurred by the Alliance, but the victory is clearly theirs, with both a strategic victory (destruction of the fleet) and a tactical victory (defeating Rastakhan) at the cost of a diversionary suicide force. This attack is made possible, mind you, because the Alliance has already undone half of the Horde's war efforts by stealing the Tide Scepter back. The battle in Darkshore is a muddled mess - the absurdity of raising Night Elves aside, the portrayal of Malfurion and Tyrande has grown steadily better, and they open a new front in the war at the same time the Horde is losing in the overall war. NPCs on both sides are already quoted as saying that the Alliance is weeks from victory.

Only now does Blizzard go back and say "Oh, the Alliance was severely hurt at Lordareon." That's all fine and dandy, but it's literally in the past - in other words, this hurdle has already been overcome by the time we're made aware of it, because we already know the Alliance has started to win. This is why I have a problem with bringing this information up now. It was not made known to the players when it was relevant. The story never dealt with the severity of Alliance losses - or at the very least, it never did so in a way that made the Horde feel as if it was their time on the upswing. Again, both sides talk about how the Horde is in dire straits after the Battle of Dazar'alor. The implication is clear. Everyone is supposed to know the Alliance is winning now - but when they were losing, that information was kept obscured and indeterminate, only revealed after the Alliance has already started to win.

So I am kind of salty because you basically gain the "we were losing and have fought back to win" without the narrative ever making that explicit for both sides. Your time of losing was brief and barely touched on, whereas everything in 8.1 is about the Horde losing.
Jellex, I can understand where you are coming from. However, per the start of the Horde Warcampaign in 8.1

https://www.wowhead.com/news=288170/8-1-horde-war-campaign-questline-now-available-on-the-ptr-story-spoilers#the-norwington-attack

"Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And thanks to your efforts, the Horde has secured the might of the Zandalari fleet. All that remains to finish breaking our foes... then we will have victory in this war."

8.1 is set as a role reversal. I absolutely agree that given the narrative tone of the Horde Zandalar quests this feel incongruous. Yes, it does not feel like the Horde is winning to you, and that is a problem, one I think is compounded by the nature in which the Horde gained the advantage and the subsequent second order effects that entails.

However, there is no real question that the Horde did suffer less casualties. While the remainder of the Alliance was able to get out before Lordaeron blew, the Alliance was routed prior to Jaina showing up. The casualties from the initial blight are framed to be massive on the Alliance side.
Jellex, I regret that I have only one upvote to give your detailed and thoughtful post.

To our Alliance-playing friends, I ask: if you mained Horde, what would you see as a win during this entire expansion? We won the campaign in Darkshore, but that was totally tainted by what happened at the end - Horde players never gave a fig about Teldrassil, and I think a clear majority were horrified at the narrative that we had enabled a monstrous war crime. Other than that there have been a bunch of draws or outright losses. We didn't get to reclaim a legendary stronghold of our faction. None of our leaders have done anything heroic; our cinematics don't have the upwelling music and dramatic conquest of, say, Jaina at Undercity or Malfurion in Darkshore.

No, we get the villain soundtrack. We get one of the greatest heroes of the Horde and most popular characters in the game telling us that our actions are without honour, and choosing to sit in jail (or work with the Alliance) rather than be part of the Horde. We get yet another "the Horde is divided" plot. We get a leader (who I used to love!) reduced to a parody of a super villain who is actively poisoning the planet and burning children as part of a war against "hope."

I know some folks picked Horde because they wanted the "Rawr smash!" faction. But it sure seems like most of us picked it because we bought into Blizzard's claim that we, too, could play as heroes, even if of a less pure sort than the Alliance.

But we get to play as stooges and losers, instead. Fun plot, Blizzard.
Jellex, I regret that I have only one upvote to give your detailed and thoughtful post.

To our Alliance-playing friends, I ask: if you mained Horde, what would you see as a win during this entire expansion? We won the campaign in Darkshore, but that was totally tainted by what happened at the end - Horde players never gave a fig about Teldrassil, and I think a clear majority were horrified at the narrative that we had enabled a monstrous war crime. Other than that there have been a bunch of draws or outright losses. We didn't get to reclaim a legendary stronghold of our faction. None of our leaders have done anything heroic; our cinematics don't have the upwelling music and dramatic conquest of, say, Jaina at Undercity or Malfurion in Darkshore.

No, we get the villain soundtrack. We get one of the greatest heroes of the Horde and most popular characters in the game telling us that our actions are without honour, and choosing to sit in jail (or work with the Alliance) rather than be part of the Horde. We get yet another "the Horde is divided" plots. We get a leader (who I used to love!) reduced to a parody of a super villain who is actively poisoning the planet and burning children as part of a war against "hope."

I know some folks picked Horde because they wanted the "Rawr smash!" faction. But it sure seems like most of us picked it because we bought into Blizzard's claim that we, too, could play as heroes, even if of a less pure sort than the Alliance.

But we get to play as stooges and losers, instead. Fun plot, Blizzard.


Carmageddon, I truly do sympathize with where you are coming from, even a decade and a half removed I still get frustrated with where WC3 took the EK part of the Alliance. I have been in your shoes and I don't like you guys having to go through that. The only bit I can offer, is that given time things do change. Just my 2 cents from a "Blue".
11/14/2018 05:27 PMPosted by Jellex
because the Alliance has already undone half of the Horde's war efforts by stealing the Tide Scepter back

Yes, but what makes you think that our entire war effort isn't going to be countered in the upcoming patches?
we had our victory, but clearly we can't win the war yet or so soon.

the 8.1 alliance war campaign is all about the attack in zuldazar while the horde at least have now 2 important plot points:ashvane and derek.
while the alliance has been working on this since 8.0 but essentially it all ends with the raid but we aren't really clear of what we will do after this patch, because, we literally cannot win the war.

so now, since this is apparently is a turn-based game, is going to be our turn to make our entire war effort ineffective

and apparently our entire attack in zuldazar and our war effort is going to be for nothing after 8.1. until is our turn again.

11/14/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Carmageddon
if you mained Horde, what would you see as a win during this entire expansion?

Teldrassil.
i don't think that the horde won at lordaeron, but neither the alliance because the alliance only wants sylvanas and she escaped.
11/14/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Saiphas
8.1 is set as a role reversal. I absolutely agree that given the narrative tone of the Horde Zandalar quests this feel incongruous. Yes, it does not feel like the Horde is winning to you, and that is a problem, one I think is compounded by the nature in which the Horde gained the advantage and the subsequent second order effects that entails.

However, there is no real question that the Horde did suffer less casualties. While the remainder of the Alliance was able to get out before Lordaeron blew, the Alliance was routed prior to Jaina showing up. The casualties from the initial blight are framed to be massive on the Alliance side.


This is good information. I didn't realize that the Alliance side narrative framed things like this - although I suppose that's to be expected. Mostly, though, my objection is with the framing of the narrative to this point; I would be more comfortable with a 'role reversal' if we'd felt like were winning for all of 8.0, but it's been the opposite. That's why there's been so much complaining, I think; we're being told it's our time to lose because we've been winning, but the Horde experience has felt like anything but winning.

Yes, but what makes you think that our entire war effort isn't going to be countered in the upcoming patches?
we had our victory, but clearly we can't win the war yet or so soon.


The Blizzcon 8.2 teasers make it seem like there's both a hard swing towards Naga (no faction war) and a tripling down on Sylvanas villainy. If this is the direction they're moving the plot, then where's the room for the Horde counterattack?

My fear is they use the appearance of the Naga to halt the faction war with the Horde on death's door, saved from annihilation only by Old God ex machina, and then we move fully into "Horde civil war 2" without a chance to ever land a blow.
11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Jellex
11/14/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Saiphas
8.1 is set as a role reversal. I absolutely agree that given the narrative tone of the Horde Zandalar quests this feel incongruous. Yes, it does not feel like the Horde is winning to you, and that is a problem, one I think is compounded by the nature in which the Horde gained the advantage and the subsequent second order effects that entails.

However, there is no real question that the Horde did suffer less casualties. While the remainder of the Alliance was able to get out before Lordaeron blew, the Alliance was routed prior to Jaina showing up. The casualties from the initial blight are framed to be massive on the Alliance side.


This is good information. I didn't realize that the Alliance side narrative framed things like this - although I suppose that's to be expected. Mostly, though, my objection is with the framing of the narrative to this point; I would be more comfortable with a 'role reversal' if we'd felt like were winning for all of 8.0, but it's been the opposite. That's why there's been so much complaining, I think; we're being told it's our time to lose because we've been winning, but the Horde experience has felt like anything but winning.


Which I absolutely think is tied both to the dissonance from Zandalari questing, combined with the way the horde gained advantage at the beginning of the war. I also thing something Carmaggedon wrote should be explored more, that is the lack of Heroic moments from Horde Heroes. I am thinking of doing a deep dive over the weekend on how/why we as a community have really prioritized "hero" moments from NPCs as important aspects of the narrative. The Horde's LACK of these is a major issue.
11/14/2018 06:02 PMPosted by Saiphas
I also thing something Carmaggedon wrote should be explored more, that is the lack of Heroic moments from Horde Heroes. I am thinking of doing a deep dive over the weekend on how/why we as a community have really prioritized "hero" moments from NPCs as important aspects of the narrative. The Horde's LACK of these is a major issue.


That's a good point. I'd be interested to see where you take that. Off the top of my head, I can think of two points:

1. The Horde has lost a LOT of the heroes it had in the faction, and the ones that remained were never developed when there was time to do so. Someone appropriate for a "Hero moment" like, say, Rommath, Liadrin, or even !@#$%^- Baine, have languished without development for years. I also think the realization that the Horde hero pool is so thin is both what drives the stretched characterization of Voss, Garona, and Rexxar, and why Valtrois is getting so much air time.

2. Related to point 1, because the Horde's leadership roster is so thin, our story has become the Sylvanas & Nathanos Show. Even at their best, these two are not particularly "heroic". They can be "badass" when used correctly, but when overused (Nathanos especially) reduce all the Horde's character moments to snarky villainy... which has been compounded by Blizzard's decision to bring out the villain sledgehammer.
11/14/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Jellex
11/14/2018 06:02 PMPosted by Saiphas
I also thing something Carmaggedon wrote should be explored more, that is the lack of Heroic moments from Horde Heroes. I am thinking of doing a deep dive over the weekend on how/why we as a community have really prioritized "hero" moments from NPCs as important aspects of the narrative. The Horde's LACK of these is a major issue.


That's a good point. I'd be interested to see where you take that. Off the top of my head, I can think of two points:

1. The Horde has lost a LOT of the heroes it had in the faction, and the ones that remained were never developed when there was time to do so. Someone appropriate for a "Hero moment" like, say, Rommath, Liadrin, or even !@#$%^- Baine, have languished without development for years. I also think the realization that the Horde hero pool is so thin is both what drives the stretched characterization of Voss, Garona, and Rexxar, and why Valtrois is getting so much air time.

2. Related to point 1, because the Horde's leadership roster is so thin, our story has become the Sylvanas & Nathanos Show. Even at their best, these two are not particularly "heroic". They can be "badass" when used correctly, but when overused (Nathanos especially) reduce all the Horde's character moments to snarky villainy... which has been compounded by Blizzard's decision to bring out the villain sledgehammer.


Your right on both those counts, but more I was thinking about how we the players discount the population of the factions as a way of representing cost and heroism. I'll probably write up something long form this weekend,
Give me a break scum! VENGEANCE FOR THE ZANDALARI!

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