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10/10/2018 04:40 PMPosted by Boomsky
Soloing Maraudon isn't exploiting anything. There's no pathing or anything being exploited, just classes like Warlock and Hunter making use of their pet to solo bosses and vendor the loot. Other classes can solo Maraudon, just not as efficiently and quickly as Hunter/Warlock can.

Soloing Dire Maul:North tribute runs isn't really an exploit. It falls under the "clever use of game mechanics", which is a pretty gray area. It abuses the NPC pathing to kill the last boss but there's no exploiting here. I play a hunter and would be the first to farm the hell out of DM:T if it was left as is but I wouln't mind if Blizzard nerfed it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to solo things but hunters (or anyone, really) shouldn't be able to farm 150g/h in an instance.

You could get to 100-200g/h farming Devilsaur Leather and having a monopoly on it, but you're competing with other players to farm limited resources. There's no limit on how much gold can be injected in the economy from dungeon runs.


Wait you're telling me having full knowledge that the boss will not jump down that wall but will turn around to run back down the ramp all the while getting freely shot and doing no damage at all to the player is not safespotting/pathing exploit?

Literally you kite him up the ramp. Jump off. Shoot him freely the entire time he runs back down the ramp. While in no danger at all of taking damage. Circle around and do it again and thats not an exploit? LOL.

I have a real hard time believing that was blizz's intention with this fight. I'm rolling a hunter and honestly I hope they leash him inside the columns.
If not. Well. Hey its there. They must of intended it that way. Guess I was wrong. Might as well abuse the crap out of it. I mean clever use of mechanics. Lol.
10/10/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Padrepwn
10/10/2018 04:40 PMPosted by Boomsky
Soloing Maraudon isn't exploiting anything. There's no pathing or anything being exploited, just classes like Warlock and Hunter making use of their pet to solo bosses and vendor the loot. Other classes can solo Maraudon, just not as efficiently and quickly as Hunter/Warlock can.

Soloing Dire Maul:North tribute runs isn't really an exploit. It falls under the "clever use of game mechanics", which is a pretty gray area. It abuses the NPC pathing to kill the last boss but there's no exploiting here. I play a hunter and would be the first to farm the hell out of DM:T if it was left as is but I wouln't mind if Blizzard nerfed it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to solo things but hunters (or anyone, really) shouldn't be able to farm 150g/h in an instance.

You could get to 100-200g/h farming Devilsaur Leather and having a monopoly on it, but you're competing with other players to farm limited resources. There's no limit on how much gold can be injected in the economy from dungeon runs.


Wait you're telling me having full knowledge that the boss will not jump down that wall but will turn around to run back down the ramp all the while getting freely shot and doing no damage at all to the player is not safespotting/pathing exploit?

Literally you kite him up the ramp. Jump off. Shoot him freely the entire time he runs back down the ramp. While in no danger at all of taking damage. Circle around and do it again and thats not an exploit? LOL.

I have a real hard time believing that was blizz's intention with this fight. I'm rolling a hunter and honestly I hope they leash him inside the columns.
If not. Well. Hey its there. They must of intended it that way. Guess I was wrong. Might as well abuse the crap out of it. I mean clever use of mechanics. Lol.


Sounds more like kiting to me from how you described it if you have to do it over and over again.
10/10/2018 05:06 PMPosted by Syradra
10/10/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Padrepwn
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Wait you're telling me having full knowledge that the boss will not jump down that wall but will turn around to run back down the ramp all the while getting freely shot and doing no damage at all to the player is not safespotting/pathing exploit?

Literally you kite him up the ramp. Jump off. Shoot him freely the entire time he runs back down the ramp. While in no danger at all of taking damage. Circle around and do it again and thats not an exploit? LOL.

I have a real hard time believing that was blizz's intention with this fight. I'm rolling a hunter and honestly I hope they leash him inside the columns.
If not. Well. Hey its there. They must of intended it that way. Guess I was wrong. Might as well abuse the crap out of it. I mean clever use of mechanics. Lol.


Sounds more like kiting to me from how you described it if you have to do it over and over again.
Yea except the part where the boss can't get to you and turns around to be freely shot in the back.
Like I said. Leash him inside the circle and see how much you kite him.
Take the ramp and that wall that he can't jump down from out of the equation and lets see if any average hunters can kite and kill him.
My money is on no where near as many can do it.
10/10/2018 04:58 PMPosted by Swani
10/10/2018 04:40 PMPosted by Boomsky
Soloing Dire Maul:North tribute runs isn't really an exploit. It falls under the "clever use of game mechanics", which is a pretty gray area. It abuses the NPC pathing to kill the last boss but there's no exploiting here. I play a hunter and would be the first to farm the hell out of DM:T if it was left as is but I wouln't mind if Blizzard nerfed it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to solo things but hunters (or anyone, really) shouldn't be able to farm 150g/h in an instance.

Druid/Druid or Druid/Rogue can 2-man those Tribute runs as well. Not as profitable, but more profit-able than mages soloing DM E *shrug*

The "fix" they implemented back then to stop these solo tribute runs didn't fix it though. Turned out that hindering King Gordok to be separated from his sidekick (can't remember name) didn't work as intended. Another fix I seem to recall, but can't place it, had King Gordok teleport to whoever he had as target. Might be a Pserver fix or something.


The difference with 2-manning DM:T is that it requires a fair amount of gear and specific talents in order to not die on the boss, at least BWL-levels of gear. It's also ~70g/h for both the druid and the rogue and not some crazy number like 140-150g/h the hunter would make by himself faster than the rogue/druid would.

You are mentioning a pserver fix (boss porting to target or porting his target to him, not sure which), which would fix Hunters soloing while leaving skilled and geared 2-man groups to do it.
10/10/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Padrepwn
10/10/2018 04:40 PMPosted by Boomsky
Soloing Maraudon isn't exploiting anything. There's no pathing or anything being exploited, just classes like Warlock and Hunter making use of their pet to solo bosses and vendor the loot. Other classes can solo Maraudon, just not as efficiently and quickly as Hunter/Warlock can.

Soloing Dire Maul:North tribute runs isn't really an exploit. It falls under the "clever use of game mechanics", which is a pretty gray area. It abuses the NPC pathing to kill the last boss but there's no exploiting here. I play a hunter and would be the first to farm the hell out of DM:T if it was left as is but I wouln't mind if Blizzard nerfed it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to solo things but hunters (or anyone, really) shouldn't be able to farm 150g/h in an instance.

You could get to 100-200g/h farming Devilsaur Leather and having a monopoly on it, but you're competing with other players to farm limited resources. There's no limit on how much gold can be injected in the economy from dungeon runs.


Wait you're telling me having full knowledge that the boss will not jump down that wall but will turn around to run back down the ramp all the while getting freely shot and doing no damage at all to the player is not safespotting/pathing exploit?

Literally you kite him up the ramp. Jump off. Shoot him freely the entire time he runs back down the ramp. While in no danger at all of taking damage. Circle around and do it again and thats not an exploit? LOL.

I have a real hard time believing that was blizz's intention with this fight. I'm rolling a hunter and honestly I hope they leash him inside the columns.
If not. Well. Hey its there. They must of intended it that way. Guess I was wrong. Might as well abuse the crap out of it. I mean clever use of mechanics. Lol.


Yes. That's how every NPC functions in this game, in case you hadn't noticed. No NPC will path to their target by "jumping over a ledge". Safespotting would be standing in a spot where the mob can't reach you, like some spots in Goblin towns or BGs.

Standing in an actual safe spot would make the mobs targeting you evade and regen back to full hp.

"Pathing exploits" aren't really a thing. You just don't like how kiting works in this game. If hunters were to use the circle instead of the ledge, it would just take longer and give them less g/h, but it'd still be doable. I've soloed mobs with way more health than King Gordok as a hunter without doing any "pathing exploits", it just takes longer.
My concern, to be honest, are not the in game bug/exploit fixes, as the changes to the lua interface over the years.
I hope that things like range radars will be a thing again. Otherwise, if they ever release later expacs, imagine doing things like Mythic HFC Archimonde without the laser lines since they pruned that functionality in Legion. That would be awful and in no way feel the same as it did when it was current.
10/10/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Boomsky
10/10/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Padrepwn
...

Wait you're telling me having full knowledge that the boss will not jump down that wall but will turn around to run back down the ramp all the while getting freely shot and doing no damage at all to the player is not safespotting/pathing exploit?

Literally you kite him up the ramp. Jump off. Shoot him freely the entire time he runs back down the ramp. While in no danger at all of taking damage. Circle around and do it again and thats not an exploit? LOL.

I have a real hard time believing that was blizz's intention with this fight. I'm rolling a hunter and honestly I hope they leash him inside the columns.
If not. Well. Hey its there. They must of intended it that way. Guess I was wrong. Might as well abuse the crap out of it. I mean clever use of mechanics. Lol.


Yes. That's how every NPC functions in this game, in case you hadn't noticed. No NPC will path to their target by "jumping over a ledge". Safespotting would be standing in a spot where the mob can't reach you, like some spots in Goblin towns or BGs.

Standing in an actual safe spot would make the mobs targeting you evade and regen back to full hp.

"Pathing exploits" aren't really a thing. You just don't like how kiting works in this game. If hunters were to use the circle instead of the ledge, it would just take longer and give them less g/h, but it'd still be doable. I've soloed mobs with way more health than King Gordok as a hunter without doing any "pathing exploits", it just takes longer.


Yea. The point where you jump down and he can't reach you. Yea that's a safe spot.
Yea and any use of mechanics that was not intended(such as safe spotting) is an exploit.

Well by all means. Make a video of you kiting him just inside that circle without using the ramp.
I'd love to see it.
I didn't say it couldn't be done.
No where near as many can do it without using the ramp and the jump.

Guess it depends on if blizz intended for it to be soloable. Which I mean come on. What other high level dungeon is soloable?
I mean they screwed hunters over in gear scaling maybe DMT was just throwing us a bone. Lol.
10/10/2018 05:54 PMPosted by Padrepwn
10/10/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Boomsky
...

Yes. That's how every NPC functions in this game, in case you hadn't noticed. No NPC will path to their target by "jumping over a ledge". Safespotting would be standing in a spot where the mob can't reach you, like some spots in Goblin towns or BGs.

Standing in an actual safe spot would make the mobs targeting you evade and regen back to full hp.

"Pathing exploits" aren't really a thing. You just don't like how kiting works in this game. If hunters were to use the circle instead of the ledge, it would just take longer and give them less g/h, but it'd still be doable. I've soloed mobs with way more health than King Gordok as a hunter without doing any "pathing exploits", it just takes longer.


Yea. The point where you jump down and he can't reach you. Yea that's a safe spot.
Yea and any use of mechanics that was not intended(such as safe spotting) is an exploit.

Well by all means. Make a video of you kiting him just inside that circle without using the ramp.
I'd love to see it.
I didn't say it couldn't be done.
No where near as many can do it without using the ramp and the jump.

Guess it depends on if blizz intended for it to be soloable. Which I mean come on. What other high level dungeon is soloable?
I mean they screwed hunters over in gear scaling maybe DMT was just throwing us a bone. Lol.


Hunters are garbage by the end of vanilla anyways. The issue isn't the fact that the boss is being kited and the pathing abused, it's that hardcore raids can make a hunter alt and get 150g/h from farming DM:T. The long-term issue is gold inflation.

I don't think Blizzard intends for things to be soloable. I was (and still am) a big fan of Mionelol. Mione's videos aren't up anymore but this player did a lot of crazy innovative soloes. The big soloes I can think of are Atramedes during Cataclysm and Helya/Gul'dan during Tomb of Sargeras, in both cases raid bosses solo'd only a few tiers later in the same expansion. I don't believe in Blizzard intending or not things to be soloed. Some dungeons like UBRS are impossible due to raw numbers and the arena being impossible to kite in. Other dungeons will have similar issues. I suggest you check out the "Hunter vs World" series on Youtube, it's back from vanilla and shows how far hunters can go in dungeons just by soloing stuff.

You can see "pathing exploits" being used even back then. I'll make it extra clear, I have no issues with the pathing issues being beneficial to hunters, my issue is that DM:T allows players (and gold farmers) to inject massive amounts of gold in the economy.
I'd also like to point out that you hardly see any of the regulars post in these threads.
You will however see a bunch of toon names you either haven't seen or don't see much of.

Most here are passively opposed to even pointing out bugs and exploits.
Wonder why that is?
Oh thats right. They have 100% faith in blizz to recognize and fix them.
So they say threads like this are pointless. Buried.
Pretty big turn around from "we dont trust blizz to adjust anything in their own game". LOL
10/10/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Padrepwn
10/10/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Raulstar
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I would say that isn't an exploit.

Lol. Most can't even do it with out the pathing exploit. So yes. I'd say its definitely an exploit.
If the boss jumped down instead of running back down the ramp this wouldn't be so easy to solo. If at all.
Put a leash on him blizz. See if anyone can solo just inside the columns.
Definitely an abuse of mechanics.
Single players should not be able to solo group content within a few levels of 60. Unless it's intended. /shrug
More easy gold/money for the RMT.

Selling tribute runs!

Is running out of geddons fire an abuse of mechanics? What about ice block while falling? Should we fix those? Where do we draw the line on what is a mechanic and an exploit?
10/10/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Bugs fixed.
Game breaking Exploits fixed. (Travel to hyjal still works, but nothing like soloing group content should work)
Battle.net integration.
Authentication for security.
Accessibility for those with disabilities.


Depending on the bug I guess. If it is not game breaking, keep it. Part of the fun is Classic was the imperfectness of it.
This is a Blizzard game so there will be some level of Battle.net integration. I just hope it is kept to the bare minimum.
Authentication goes back to the Battle.net integration comment. This is one of the things I want them to keep. Let me know my account is secure.
As far as disabilities, what are you referring to? Things like a colorblind mode I will be all for. I'm not sure what other kind of disability there is to make for a game.
10/10/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Dwynelysande
Is the hunter solo DM tribute run or lock solo mara an exploit?
Serious question will affect how I respond.


Back in actual vanilla it wasn't a thing the same way it is on private servers. Blizzard worked with content to make sure people couldn't abuse pathings on bosses and solo through out the patches.
10/10/2018 06:37 PMPosted by Classichype
10/10/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Dwynelysande
Is the hunter solo DM tribute run or lock solo mara an exploit?
Serious question will affect how I respond.


Back in actual vanilla it wasn't a thing the same way it is on private servers. Blizzard worked with content to make sure people couldn't abuse pathings on bosses and solo through out the patches.


Wait what....

https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=27092

Hunter vs World 4. Uploaded on Sep 2006 (this is Vanilla)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXE_RR5XzE8 (video of Hunter vs World 4)

Around the 11 minute mark this hunter, from Vanilla, solos DM:N.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcDoCP9U3mg

This is Hunter vs World 5 where he solos BRD.

What these videos show me is someone who is playing the game...
10/10/2018 06:18 PMPosted by Valhalian
10/10/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Padrepwn
...
Lol. Most can't even do it with out the pathing exploit. So yes. I'd say its definitely an exploit.
If the boss jumped down instead of running back down the ramp this wouldn't be so easy to solo. If at all.
Put a leash on him blizz. See if anyone can solo just inside the columns.
Definitely an abuse of mechanics.
Single players should not be able to solo group content within a few levels of 60. Unless it's intended. /shrug
More easy gold/money for the RMT.

Selling tribute runs!

Is running out of geddons fire an abuse of mechanics? What about ice block while falling? Should we fix those? Where do we draw the line on what is a mechanic and an exploit?


The line is the same place it's always been: Intended or not intended.
Clever use of mechanics shouldn't trivialize content. Get you through it by the skin of your teeth sure. Not trivialize it.
Like the discussion above about DMT run.
That ramp and the boss's pathing allow for the content to be trivialized by a single toon in what was intended as 5 man content for 5 toons of that level.
That is what it was tuned for and that is what it should take to complete it.

How many level 15's or even 18's are soloing RFC in Vanilla? I'll wait.
Looking at your list it depends on how defined "bug" is. Personally I'd take that term much more loosely than most likely would... for example:

-I don't doubt a lawyer (or solid debate team since it wouldn't be a legal setting) could make a very pointed case about very poor Hybrid class performance outside of healer roles to be a "bug"

-I think Raid difficulty levels by the time 1.12 being out (where much of the content was trivialized difficulty wise) was also arguably a "bug"

-Dishonorable kils, was a system that completely and totally failed to do it's intended job in the game (prevent NPC griefing) and was extremely punitive and outright exploitable for trolling same faction players. One could easily make the case that was a bugged/broken feature.

Your list at value is fine, but there's a ton of issues that can be considered under the broad umbrella of a "bug" and they likely need to get addressed more individually, than under a broader label.
10/10/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Siarkd
10/10/2018 06:37 PMPosted by Classichype
...

Back in actual vanilla it wasn't a thing the same way it is on private servers. Blizzard worked with content to make sure people couldn't abuse pathings on bosses and solo through out the patches.


Wait what....

https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=27092

Hunter vs World 4. Uploaded on Sep 2006 (this is Vanilla)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXE_RR5XzE8 (video of Hunter vs World 4)

Around the 11 minute mark this hunter, from Vanilla, solos DM:N.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcDoCP9U3mg

This is Hunter vs World 5 where he solos BRD.

What these videos show me is someone who is playing the game...


If the room allowed for cheetah kiting then yah. You would typically need a group to clear to most bosses in order to do the solo. The mauradon one was patched iirc because it was so easy to solo and you could skip the trash.

The hunter did not solo the trash in any of those instances completely by any chance.
10/10/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Bugs fixed.
Game breaking Exploits fixed. (Travel to hyjal still works, but nothing like soloing group content should work)
Battle.net integration.
Authentication for security.
Accessibility for those with disabilities.

Feel free to respond! Thumbs up if Okay with abofe. If against please list what and why .
as long as they dont add xrealms arenas flying mount and stuff like that then im game and rdy to subscibe. Just hope they stick to the classic play style.
I wouldn't be opposed to a button that lets you order pizza IRL.
As you can see by the participation there are those who oppose bug fixes.
Some have it in their head that blizz actually listens to the forums. Lol.
10/12/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Padrepwn
As you can see by the participation there are those who oppose bug fixes.
Some have it in their head that blizz actually listens to the forums. Lol.


NPCs pathing how they should isn't a bug.

Using Feign Death/invis pots to skip all the trash isn't a bug.

There's a lot of things in Vanilla that suck/are unfair in and should be fixed(in your opinion), but they're not bugs. If you were to go on retail and try to solo King Gordok in the exact same way it would work because mobs on retail don't teleport up walls.

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