Having the Nightborne join either faction was a mistake

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10/11/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Umbrafang
Am I a little salty that all my effort on my Alliance characters was for nothing? Yes. However I also do think think that NB going Horde was the correct decision. The problem is that the reason for NB going Horde is incredibly weak ingame and can literally be summed up as Tyrande saying mean things. If they had explained how the NB were literally the society that the NElves abandoned 10k years ago, how they hid in a bubble while the Legion invaded, how Tyrande knew Thalyssra and couldn't see her as this perfect leader, etc, then it would've smoothed over better.


Considering that your efforts provided a key part to defeating not only the Legion invasion of Azeroth but the Legion as a whole.. how can you say that it was all 'for nothing'?
Either turn the Nightborne neutral or give High Elves to the Alliance. Any other option is simply bias.
10/11/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Caerii
Void Elves, joined the Alliance because the Blood Elves were afraid their voidness would taint the sunwell (Alleria almost destroyed it herself).


And I believe he would have accepted them with open arms had Alleria not proven to be legitimate threat to our people.

10/11/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Iver
And now the Warrior Champion is a champion of the alliance, and all debts and gratitudes from the Nightborne are forgotten.


No, our faction leaders put forth their case and the Nightborne felt more inclined to side with Lor'themar than Tyrande.

Hell it was only recently that mages were welcome back into their ranks they would have kept Farodin in exile had that still been the case.

Farodin did more for the Nightborne than anyone else and up until the stupid lore change in Cataclysm would have been treated like dirt by Tyrande due to being a mage.
10/11/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Gulrum
Either turn the Nightborne neutral or give High Elves to the Alliance. Any other option is simply bias.


Not sure how that would be bias.

Not that I really care if the Alliance get High Elves.. but this is a bit of a troll post at best.
The Horde should never have had the forsaken, blood elves, or nightborn. I am aware of the irony of my statement.
10/11/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Rea
Not sure how that would be bias.
Because "if I don't get what I want, it's bias!"

10/11/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Kelrexia
I like how this threads always have people who falsely (and probably disingenuously) equivalize Nightborne content in Legion (~40% of Legion's endgame between Suramar and Nighthold) with Lightforged (literally 1 irrelevant questline + recruitment quest) and Void Elf (literally only have recruitment quest) content.
Are you purposely ignoring the fact that we actually had to go to a different planet and we witnessed the entire dramm with Velen and his buddies? And that Horde players also were of big help with getting to the void naaru? And more importantly... that Horde players were the key - as per the OP's logic, at least - to rid Argus of the Legion?

I never said that Argus had more content than Suramar, but to say it was irrevelant in comparison, considering that obtaining the pillar was a step that eventually would lead us to the grand finale of Argus, it's truly disingenuous... or you just like to minimize whatever it's convenient.
10/11/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Momimfotm
The cognitive dissonance displayed by some Alliance players towards the Nightborne cracks me up.

Alliance player: "Who cares about those worthless mana addicts who hid under a magic bubble for 10,000 years, let the worthless horde have them"

Alliance player: "Waaaah, why didn't we get nightborne as a playable race after helping them, muh horde bias"

Even if this post wasn't extremely exaggerated, any individual Alliance player's opinions had absolutely nothing to do with why the Nightborne went Horde.

N.B. Who cares about those worthless mana addicts anyway?
10/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Rea
10/11/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Umbrafang
Am I a little salty that all my effort on my Alliance characters was for nothing? Yes. However I also do think think that NB going Horde was the correct decision. The problem is that the reason for NB going Horde is incredibly weak ingame and can literally be summed up as Tyrande saying mean things. If they had explained how the NB were literally the society that the NElves abandoned 10k years ago, how they hid in a bubble while the Legion invaded, how Tyrande knew Thalyssra and couldn't see her as this perfect leader, etc, then it would've smoothed over better.


Considering that your efforts provided a key part to defeating not only the Legion invasion of Azeroth but the Legion as a whole.. how can you say that it was all 'for nothing'?
Maybe I should rephrase that. It's understandable to be upset after putting a significant time and effort into helping someone to have them turn around and try to kill you afterward. I stand by NB going Horde as the correct choice, but I believe the reasons why could have been better explained ingame.
10/11/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Rea
The other thing to remember is that both Tyrande and Vareesa acted as if the only reason they were even participating in the Insurrection storyline was due to Khadgar's goading as an Elf race.


In the case of the night elves...they were probably hesitant because they were either still mostly in kalimdor. And the dreamweaver detachment...had their own issues really.

Also nightborn aren't exactly social friendly people either to say lets bend over backwards either. The lei line chick...is pretty much an elitist pita most of the storyline. Which I can dig....she is upfront and honest about it.

even with the change of power its not like it went from Elisande to Mother Theresa put in charge. New leadership while nicer a bit...still has some attitude there.

her attitude and Tyrande's in the same room...won't mix well. Mixed well with Sylvanas since Sylvanas can be social if it suits her. She can play the game when needed.

Now the fun question is later on when numbers low, how will the nightborne dig resurrection.

Dark rangers are high elves iirc,

8.1 it seems nathanos learns a new trick with night elf corpses.

Sylvanas gets in a bad spot....undead nightborne. Wonder how they will dig that? Sylvanas isn't shy here so ,imo, not a far fetched possibility. She clearly turns to elven based undead when she wants more capable troop options.

Which I'd not mind since lore all over the place now these days. If it would mean a chance at a dark ranger class one day....Sylvanas could do this all day long imo.

demon hunter, death knight, lets round it out with a playable dark ranger variant. tank and dps there...ranged dps hero class time.
10/11/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Rea
The other thing to remember is that both Tyrande and Vareesa acted as if the only reason they were even participating in the Insurrection storyline was due to Khadgar's goading as an Elf race.


In the case of the night elves...they were probably hesitant because they were either still mostly in kalimdor. And the dreamweaver detachment...had their own issues really.

Also nightborn aren't exactly social friendly people either to say lets bend over backwards either. The lei line chick...is pretty much an elitist pita most of the storyline. Which I can dig....she is upfront and honest about it.

even with the change of power its not like it went from Elisande to Mother Theresa put in charge. New leadership while nicer a bit...still has some attitude there.

her attitude and Tyrande's in the same room...won't mix well. Mixed well with Sylvanas since Sylvanas can be social if it suits her. She can play the game when needed.

Now the fun question is later on when numbers low, how will the nightborne dig resurrection.

Dark rangers are high elves iirc,

8.1 it seems nathanos learns a new trick with night elf corpses.

Sylvanas gets in a bad spot....undead nightborne. Wonder how they will dig that? Sylvanas isn't shy here so ,imo, not a far fetched possibility. She clearly turns to elven based undead when she wants more capable troop options.

Which I'd not mind since lore all over the place now these days. If it would mean a chance at a dark ranger class one day....Sylvanas could do this all day long imo.

demon hunter, death knight, lets round it out with a playable dark ranger variant. tank and dps there...ranged dps hero class time.
10/11/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Umbrafang
10/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Rea
...

Considering that your efforts provided a key part to defeating not only the Legion invasion of Azeroth but the Legion as a whole.. how can you say that it was all 'for nothing'?
Maybe I should rephrase that. It's understandable to be upset after putting a significant time and effort into helping someone to have them turn around and try to kill you afterward. I stand by NB going Horde as the correct choice, but I believe the reasons why could have been better explained ingame.


That, I agree with.. it could have definitely been fleshed out to be more than 'Well, Tyrande didn't call us soo... Hello Horde!'...
Not sure what you Alliance players are taking about. *I'M* the Champion of the Horde, *I* saved the Nightborne Tauren and Argus. Of course they joined my faction.

It's understandable the LF Draenei betrayed me, they wanted to be with their people on the Alliance. Velen joined the Alliance before I became his good friend, I get it. That's why he's sitting in that melancholy position in the Alliance Embassy. Everything I did for him and he's forced to side against me because poor writing. I forgive him and his light slave allies. (I hate the light anyway so it's probably for the best)

Void Elves were literally farted out of the void so idc
10/11/2018 06:00 PMPosted by Iver
Suramar was the most compelling bit of storytelling and questing I've ever experienced in WoW. I saved Thalryssa from certain death, and joined her rebellion of one when her cause seemed hopeless. I helped it flourish: I saved those who would become its major figures from the pits of despair, and watched and helped them grow as people and leaders. I formed a strong, personal relationship with them, as I freed them and their people from the grips of their addiction and from the tyranny of the legion.

And then they joined the Horde.

So did my actions never happen? Did the Horde champion canonically grow the Arcan'dor in Shal'aran? It was honestly a punch in the gut when the first time I heard from the Nightborne in BFA was when I had to kill Oculeth's apprentice in the 7th legion campaign. The same Oculeth that I freed from mana addiction?

I imagine Horde players would feel the same way if they joined the Alliance.

Kudos, to the writers, for creating such a compelling story - but what did my actions, the Alliance champion's, amount to, if they would so happily join the Horde?


Agreed. Made worst by how stupid the justification was.
10/11/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Paternus


Agreed. Made worst by how stupid the justification was.


and the grand finale kick in the balls of lots of this stuff ties to major unlocks like....pathfinder.

Gratz alliance player...you will save to the point of revered (and basically exalted for nighfallen) 2 races who will try to kill you later.

Aren't you so glad you worked your butt of for the diplomats of the isles and good suramaritan achievement.

edit: yes horde can say the same but...its pretty clear argus crews will be alliance. Windrunner did not fight demons for 1000 years to come back to azeroth to burn down a tree village. Nor did the light draenei....
10/11/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Rea
10/11/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Umbrafang
...Maybe I should rephrase that. It's understandable to be upset after putting a significant time and effort into helping someone to have them turn around and try to kill you afterward. I stand by NB going Horde as the correct choice, but I believe the reasons why could have been better explained ingame.


That, I agree with.. it could have definitely been fleshed out to be more than 'Well, Tyrande didn't call us soo... Hello Horde!'...


It was hinted at throughout the entire Suramar experience. Tyrande was cold, condescending and throwing out gems such as on finishing a Suramar WQ "Good, now the Nightborne can die for themselves instead of Night Elves wasting their lives on them" along with events afterwards with Silgryn joining the Blood Elves in Orgrimmar before sailing with them to the Exodar and staying alongside Aethas Sunreaver.

Just because they weren't as overt as having Tyrande and Thalrissa getting into a brawl doesn't mean things weren't fleshed out.
10/11/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Katerlia
10/11/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Rea
...

That, I agree with.. it could have definitely been fleshed out to be more than 'Well, Tyrande didn't call us soo... Hello Horde!'...


It was hinted at throughout the entire Suramar experience. Tyrande was cold, condescending and throwing out gems such as on finishing a Suramar WQ "Good, now the Nightborne can die for themselves instead of Night Elves wasting their lives on them" along with events afterwards with Silgryn joining the Blood Elves in Orgrimmar before sailing with them to the Exodar and staying alongside Aethas Sunreaver.

Just because they weren't as overt as having Tyrande and Thalrissa getting into a brawl doesn't mean things weren't fleshed out.


The problem is that there was a lack of decisive action that drove the Nightborne from the Alliance to the Horde. As Thalryssa said in the recruitment quests, the biggest surprise for her was that the Night Elves didn't reach out to her people.. not that they did something to directly drive them away.. just that they failed to send a letter after the events of the Nightfallen Insurrection.

I think this is the root of why so many people have a problem with the Nightborne suddenly turning Horde.. I agree that the writing was on the wall that they would be going Horde.. especially when it was revealed that they were basically the Blood Elves redux with the Nightwell.. but there was never a clear cut event that indicated that the Alliance messed up and drove the Nightborne away to the Horde to give a clear indication why this happened.
10/11/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Rea
The problem is that there was a lack of decisive action that drove the Nightborne from the Alliance to the Horde. As Thalryssa said in the recruitment quests, the biggest surprise for her was that the Night Elves didn't reach out to her people.. not that they did something to directly drive them away..


And? They weren't allied like High/Blood Elves and the Alliance were. They don't need the equivalent of a Garrithos to make an explosive incident that has them join the Horde.

Nightborne had never been associated with either.

One side, the Alliance, had shown they didn't particularly care for them, individually or as a whole.

The Blood Elves had shown they cared, shared commonalities and invited them over to their similarly magical city and invited them to ally.

If you were making friends, would you be more inclined to hang out with the one who barely says a word to you, only when they absolutely have to, or the one who you've got a lot in common, chats with you a lot and invites you to come around for dinner and hang out?
Honestly, I wish they were neutral, like Pandaren. Have one faction of the Nightborne wish to join the Blood Elves, and another faction wish to reconnect with their lost Night Elf heritage (and no small part to the Night Elf dude who literally grew the Arcandor) and join the Alliance.

Then, let both sides have a sort of 'tug of war' as they try and persuade Surumar as a whole to fully support Ally or Horde. Tbh, not only would it have drastically helped the continuity between BfA and Legion for Alliance players, but it would also have some interesting story potential.

But screw that, amirite? In one fell swoop, they throw their lot in with Sylvanas, who immediately sets off genociding their sister-species who literally less than a year canonically just saved them from extinction. Remember the Night Elf who grew the Arcandor to save them? To thank him, they tried to annihilate his species. Bet he feels awfully stupid now, doesn't he?
10/11/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Katerlia
10/11/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Rea
The problem is that there was a lack of decisive action that drove the Nightborne from the Alliance to the Horde. As Thalryssa said in the recruitment quests, the biggest surprise for her was that the Night Elves didn't reach out to her people.. not that they did something to directly drive them away..


And? They weren't allied like High/Blood Elves and the Alliance were. They don't need the equivalent of a Garrithos to make an explosive incident that has them join the Horde.

Nightborne had never been associated with either.

One side, the Alliance, had shown they didn't particularly care for them, individually or as a whole.

The Blood Elves had shown they cared, shared commonalities and invited them over to their similarly magical city and invited them to ally.

If you were making friends, would you be more inclined to hang out with the one who barely says a word to you, only when they absolutely have to, or the one who you've got a lot in common, chats with you a lot and invites you to come around for dinner and hang out?


I am suspecting that you haven't read the full thread and only saw my last reply.
10/11/2018 10:43 PMPosted by Rea

I am suspecting that you haven't read the full thread and only saw my last reply.


Got a specific post of yours you're subtly insinuating I should read?

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