The "You're not entitled" myth...

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11/06/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Tinúviel
11/06/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Ziziana
The customer isn't always right, but when the forums and sub numbers say that they aren't happy with what you are doing it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider that they might be right.

Forums have always been a cesspool of unending complaints. People don't come here to say "I love the game, I'm really satisfied with my new race/class/spec! Kul Tiras has the greatest level design in WoW history!"
You also don't know the sub numbers, and they haven't been released since the WoD debacle, and I assure you Legion and BFA have done far better than WoD.

Honestly I didn't start coming to the forums until I had about half of my guild just stop caring about a game they were super hyped for because of the issues I mentioned in another post above. It's a real problem that is causing people to quit.
11/06/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Ziziana
11/06/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Snowfox
...
Great, now get everyone to agree on flying, focusing on casual vs hardcore content, and whether horde or alliance need the buff.

Or work on those issues instead? Since they seem to be the biggest issues?

What work should be done there though?

You've got customers in disagreement about it. So who should they listen to? It's as simple as listening to the customer, because the customer is always right?

So, that should be easy, if we swallow the narrative here that Blizzard should just listen.
11/06/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Snowfox
11/06/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Ziziana
...
Or work on those issues instead? Since they seem to be the biggest issues?

What work should be done there though?

You've got customers in disagreement about it. So who should they listen to? It's as simple as listening to the customer, because the customer is always right?

So, that should be easy, if we swallow the narrative here that Blizzard should just listen.

Try something different.
Azerite is horrible to target, all the traits are unbalanced with each other, don't do anything meaningful to the character other than a % buff to damage.
Start there, which good on them for the vendor stuff. Not sure if it will help more than a little bit but at least it helps.
11/06/2018 08:28 AMPosted by Tinúviel
The customer is not always right.
Absolutely true. But when millions of customers vote with their feet, at some point you probably should start to give their opinions some credence.

I personally might think I know what I want...and don't. But collectively, those millions, knew what they wanted, and obviously didn't get it.
11/06/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Ziziana
<span class="truncated">...</span>
What work should be done there though?

You've got customers in disagreement about it. So who should they listen to? It's as simple as listening to the customer, because the customer is always right?

So, that should be easy, if we swallow the narrative here that Blizzard should just listen.

Try something different.
Azerite is horrible to target, all the traits are unbalanced with each other, don't do anything meaningful to the character other than a % buff to damage.
Start there, which good on them for the vendor stuff. Not sure if it will help more than a little bit but at least it helps.

Well, I also hate azerite gear. So I'm not gonna die defending that hill. So I'll concede they need to do something drastic there.. but.. that's just one topic. I even posted publicly against azerite gear trying to get things done there: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769537827?page=1

That still leaves flying and pathfinder in 8.2, the increasing horde imbalance, mythic+ vs mythic raider focus (who should get priority?), people still trying to get rid of LFR, every class is imba and op and up, etc.

I mean really, if we could get ourselves to agree on all this - that'd be great.. but.. if there's one thing I've learned about GD, it's that we're in no danger of becoming an echo chamber because we disagree on virtually every topic that ever comes up.
11/06/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Onorlus
I'm seeing many people comment that a big problem with the Blizzard/player relationship is that the players feel "entitled".

I believe a majority of them do....And they should.

WE pay Blizzard. They work for us. They are autonomous but their income comes from the players. And in any relationship there will be some discord from time to time. The parties should be able to work through it for the relationship to continue.

However, both parties should be aware of their role....of their place.

Blizzard needs its players. Otherwise, they fold. Revenue plummets, stock values drop, investors bail.

The players do not need Blizzard. They have an abundance of options for their entertainment needs.

And because of that dynamic, the players are entitled.


Blizzard has suffered from this in the past and it may just be rearing its ugly head again...

HUBRIS
11/06/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Onorlus
I'm seeing many people comment that a big problem with the Blizzard/player relationship is that the players feel "entitled".

I believe a majority of them do....And they should.

WE pay Blizzard. They work for us. They are autonomous but their income comes from the players. And in any relationship there will be some discord from time to time. The parties should be able to work through it for the relationship to continue.

However, both parties should be aware of their role....of their place.

Blizzard needs its players. Otherwise, they fold. Revenue plummets, stock values drop, investors bail.

The players do not need Blizzard. They have an abundance of options for their entertainment needs.

And because of that dynamic, the players are entitled.


What you’re entitled to is covered in the TOS.

Get over yourself.
11/06/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Onorlus
WE pay Blizzard. They work for us.


No. They don't work for you. This very idea is the cornerstone of your entitlement.

Even if blizzard was primarily a services company, they still wouldn't work for you. You don't get to dictate what they do or how they behave. You can't fire them. You can't force them to do what you want.

I think you and many many others have convinced yourself of some kind of hyper-importance, like any thought that enters your mind is incredibly special. If you've been playing wow for a decade and a half, your entire contribution is the equivalent of one person's bi-weekly paycheck. How you extrapolate that to "they work for me" is remarkable.
11/06/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Onorlus
I'm seeing many people comment that a big problem with the Blizzard/player relationship is that the players feel "entitled".

I believe a majority of them do....And they should.

WE pay Blizzard. They work for us. They are autonomous but their income comes from the players. And in any relationship there will be some discord from time to time. The parties should be able to work through it for the relationship to continue.

However, both parties should be aware of their role....of their place.

Blizzard needs its players. Otherwise, they fold. Revenue plummets, stock values drop, investors bail.

The players do not need Blizzard. They have an abundance of options for their entertainment needs.

And because of that dynamic, the players are entitled.

I don't agree and here's why. What you're saying would be true if we were paying a tax, or something not optional. The sub is an option, and you have many alternatives on the market. The way the system works is Blizzard does what it believes will sell subs. If we agree we buy subs, if not Blizzard will make a change or go out of business. If you don't like the decisions they make, but those decisions still sell subs, you're !@#$ out of luck. It sucks.

There is an argument to be made about a company respecting and listening to its customers. The best companies do this. Blizzard does this a lot better than most game companies in my opinion. But they absolutely don't HAVE to do anything because you asked them to. Just like we don't HAVE to buy their product even if they want us to.
...
Try something different.
Azerite is horrible to target, all the traits are unbalanced with each other, don't do anything meaningful to the character other than a % buff to damage.
Start there, which good on them for the vendor stuff. Not sure if it will help more than a little bit but at least it helps.

Well, I also hate azerite gear. So I'm not gonna die defending that hill. So I'll concede they need to do something drastic there.. but.. that's just one topic. I even posted publicly against azerite gear trying to get things done there: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769537827?page=1

That still leaves flying and pathfinder in 8.2, the increasing horde imbalance, mythic+ vs mythic raider focus (who should get priority?), people still trying to get rid of LFR, every class is imba and op and up, etc.

I mean really, if we could get ourselves to agree on all this - that'd be great.. but.. if there's one thing I've learned about GD, it's that we're in no danger of becoming an echo chamber because we disagree on virtually every topic that ever comes up.

Flying? Didn't kill the game in bfa. That's a salt problem imo. Do I want flying, sure but it's not a game killer.
No idea on how to fix faction imbalance because it's not just racials or mounts or story.
Mythics? To be honest both raiding and M+ took a step back. Each system is currently designed to annoy your rotation while still dps checking you. I feel like ghunn was really the only fight where that wasn't the case as much. Every other fight feels like what "fire" do I avoid now. Try some new interesting mechanics. Something other than don't stand in bad and don't bring bad on the group. They need to hire some good old pen and paper DMs to design concepts for things. They aren't creative in this area. Zuldazar seems to be in the right direction though.
Lfr i dont get. The only thing that would maybe fix that is limit the max Titanforge to normal ilvl. Casuals still get better great than they have worked for and the crybaby crowd don't have to see bad players with super luck gear. Our just ignore this complaint.
For the class balance, stop letting the spread be so wide. When a spec is clearly terrible on every sim and logs, use those to see what can be done. Adding more ability choice would go a long way to this because more abilities to tweak in smaller ways make different combos easier to place on skill instead of rngsus.

Will these solve everything? No but an attempt needs to be tried.
11/06/2018 10:07 AMPosted by Chrysâlis
Blizzard has suffered from this in the past and it may just be rearing its ugly head again...

HUBRIS


Here's the hyper-importance I'm talking about.

Hubris isn't just any old arrogance, its quite literally arrogance in front of a God. To achieve hubris, you need to thumb your nose to the natural order. In other words, players believe they're gods.
Is it still sunday somewhere?
11/06/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Ziziana
...
Well, I also hate azerite gear. So I'm not gonna die defending that hill. So I'll concede they need to do something drastic there.. but.. that's just one topic. I even posted publicly against azerite gear trying to get things done there: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769537827?page=1

That still leaves flying and pathfinder in 8.2, the increasing horde imbalance, mythic+ vs mythic raider focus (who should get priority?), people still trying to get rid of LFR, every class is imba and op and up, etc.

I mean really, if we could get ourselves to agree on all this - that'd be great.. but.. if there's one thing I've learned about GD, it's that we're in no danger of becoming an echo chamber because we disagree on virtually every topic that ever comes up.

Flying? Didn't kill the game in bfa. That's a salt problem imo. Do I want flying, sure but it's not a game killer.

No idea on how to fix faction imbalance because it's not just racials or mounts or story.

Mythics? To be honest both raiding and M+ took a step back. Each system is currently designed to annoy your rotation while still dps checking you. I feel like ghunn was really the only fight where that wasn't the case as much. Every other fight feels like what "fire" do I avoid now. Try some new interesting mechanics. Something other than don't stand in bad and don't bring bad on the group. They need to hire some good old pen and paper DMs to design concepts for things. They aren't creative in this area. Zuldazar seems to be in the right direction though.

Lfr i dont get. The only thing that would maybe fix that is limit the max Titanforge to normal ilvl. Casuals still get better great than they have worked for and the crybaby crowd don't have to see bad players with super luck gear. Our just ignore this complaint.

For the class balance, stop letting the spread be so wide. When a spec is clearly terrible on every sim and logs, use those to see what can be done. Adding more ability choice would go a long way to this because more abilities to tweak in smaller ways make different combos easier to place on skill instead of rngsus.

Will these solve everything? No but an attempt needs to be tried.

Those are sane points and I generally agree with them. The problem though, like at the end of your statement about LFR - is that many customers -do- have issues with things like LFR. To them, Blizzard isn't listening because they don't remove LFR. Often you hear those arguments coupled with 'return to the good old days' type ones.. or 'wow used to be hardcore' and such. There's soo soo many voices here.

Anyway though thanks for the reasonable discussion about it. I always enjoy that.
...
Flying? Didn't kill the game in bfa. That's a salt problem imo. Do I want flying, sure but it's not a game killer.

No idea on how to fix faction imbalance because it's not just racials or mounts or story.

Mythics? To be honest both raiding and M+ took a step back. Each system is currently designed to annoy your rotation while still dps checking you. I feel like ghunn was really the only fight where that wasn't the case as much. Every other fight feels like what "fire" do I avoid now. Try some new interesting mechanics. Something other than don't stand in bad and don't bring bad on the group. They need to hire some good old pen and paper DMs to design concepts for things. They aren't creative in this area. Zuldazar seems to be in the right direction though.

Lfr i dont get. The only thing that would maybe fix that is limit the max Titanforge to normal ilvl. Casuals still get better great than they have worked for and the crybaby crowd don't have to see bad players with super luck gear. Our just ignore this complaint.

For the class balance, stop letting the spread be so wide. When a spec is clearly terrible on every sim and logs, use those to see what can be done. Adding more ability choice would go a long way to this because more abilities to tweak in smaller ways make different combos easier to place on skill instead of rngsus.

Will these solve everything? No but an attempt needs to be tried.

Those are sane points and I generally agree with them. The problem though, like at the end of your statement about LFR - is that many customers -do- have issues with things like LFR. To them, Blizzard isn't listening because they don't remove LFR. Often you hear those arguments coupled with 'return to the good old days' type ones.. or 'wow used to be hardcore' and such. There's soo soo many voices here.

Anyway though thanks for the reasonable discussion about it. I always enjoy that.

Oh no! I did a reasonable. Quick I need to think of something...make slow speed mounts the only mount speed and triple the Titanforge range and rate.

Whew that was a close one.
I feel the entitled argument cant be true about all or even most of player base. I think shtting on someone's character or lack thereof is just a conversational scapegoat. I believe if the player base pays Blizzard money, and gives them feedback on a game they pay for, they should listen intently and respond genuinely and with integrity.

I think "you're just entitled" comes from people who have entitlement issues themselves. I personally dont care because I expect very little out of people, it's why I'm antisocial. But that doesn't disqualify the fact that Blizzard lies about listening to feedback and enjoying it. They dont listen. And if they are they don't work effectively with said feedback.

And leaving the Diablo die hards in the dark for years and finally come out with Immortal but strictly for the mobile devices... that's a blatant disrespect and evidence that they truly dont care. And how can they? They write off feedback as entitled peoples whining. They're rich and just want more money. They don't care for the individual player and its sad.

But hey at least it looks like Blizzards taking baby steps in the right direction with BFA. Although, I've uninstalled all the games except WoW. I'll ride this train til it slams right into a wall.
This day and age a game is created. The game is supposed to be challenging and something you work on to excel. However, when anything in this game is put in place to be harder to achieve it's suddenly inaccessible and put on easy mode so everyone's feelings aren't hurt. Paying to play the game is what your money is going to. It's up to you to complete the game. Guess it's hard to understand for the soy culture that is our youth.
11/06/2018 08:41 AMPosted by Thorland
Blizz doesn't exactly stop people from being overly harsh when they say things like this.

Executive producer and Blizzard co-founder Allen Adham talking about the backlash over the Diablo Unlimited announcement.

Adham chalked it up not to entitlement, but instead to passion. “They love what they love and want what they want,” he said of the fans raging at BlizzCon and across the internet. “That passion, it’s actually what drives us, and we feel it too. It’s why we make games and why we’ve made games for almost three decades now—and why our community is so passionate about our franchises. I understand their feeling and wish we could share more about all the amazing things we’re doing, not just with the Diablo franchise but across the company as a whole.”

https://kotaku.com/blizzard-says-it-wasnt-expecting-fans-to-be-this-angry-1830204721


https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/9tnfy0/blizzard_diablo_on_mobile_is_a_slap_in_the_face/

It is a slap in the face!!
11/06/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Rastlin
It is a slap in the face!!

I wondered where you were.
Only on the internet can you find people defending a corporation and claiming that people who pay aren't entitled to what they pay for. I really don't understand the mentality you have to have to justify this sort of thing.

I feel like I bring up the whole, "Blizzard fans eat up whatever Blizzard poops on their plate," thing a lot. But it always rings true.
I believe a majority of them do....And they should.

WE pay Blizzard. They work for us.


False.
We pay to access THEIR world.

The ONLY thing that your 15 bucks a month entitles you too is the ability to hit the Play button on your launcher.
That.
Is.
All.
Nothing other than that. You want content? Buy the expansions. You want to change your faction? Buy the service. Etc, etc, etc.

However, both parties should be aware of their role....of their place.

Their place is to create THEIR world. YOUR place is to play, or not. If you do not like their direction, then leave feedback. Submit suggestions. ACTIVELY beta test, and run on the PTR to leave even more feedback, and better, educated, suggestions.
If that is not enough for you, then, your place as the consumer, is to move on to another product.
However, the same rules will apply. You want to call the shots? Then go right ahead Mister Company Starter and Game Developer. You got this.

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