Make Drain Soul Baseline?

Warlock
I was recently playing around with talent builds on my aff lock and discovered that choosing drain soul actually netted me a DPS loss vs not using a level 15 talent at all.

After looking at the tooltips for these spells on wowhead its now obvious why this is the case. Shadowbolt does damage equal to 45% of spellpower with a 2 second cast time. Drain soul does damage equal to 75% of spellpower with a 5 second cast time.

Shadowbolt DPS as a % of spellpower: 45%/2 = 22.5%

Drain soul DPS as a % of spellpower: 75%/5 = 15%

Unless I am totally misinterpreting this here, choosing DS is always going to be a DPS loss, even with talents like shadows embrace or haunt since SB benefits from these as well.

It seems redundant to have a talent that literally hinders your ST dmg vs not choosing a talent point at all. I mean at the very least choosing a talent should not be a loss vs not choosing any talents.

If the only advantages of DS are shard sniping and execute damage, I feel like this is too situational to be on the same talent tier as deathbolt and also replace a filler that does more ST dps by default. Too many losses, barely any gains.

So why not just make DS a baseline spell for affliction warlock (not a replacement for shadowbolt, have DS be a separate spell)? I think it would add some interesting variation to the gameplay mechanics too (sniping shards, switching filler during execute phase)
Last expac it went from a talent into a baseline replacement for Drain Life after Patch 7.1 and it WAS the filler. There was no Shadowbolt, no Drain Life, only Drain Soul

And IMO, it was a little stupid

It was stupid strong with some talent cjamges, as well as Legendaries finally becoming more common, Affliction changed from a meme spec into a !@#$%^- powerhouse overnight. No matter how hard people complained (like they do now), Affliction Warlock became the king of Nighthold, a very strong competitor in Tomb of Sargeras, and the king again of Antorus

But it also was very boring. The playstyle was literally apply dots, drain soul, rinse and repeat...there was really not much skill needed to play Affliction, especially towards the end of Legion which I was a little disappointed about
11/10/2018 02:40 AMPosted by Ghazgkul
Last expac it went from a talent into a baseline replacement for Drain Life after Patch 7.1 and it WAS the filler. There was no Shadowbolt, no Drain Life, only Drain Soul

And IMO, it was a little stupid

It was stupid strong with some talent cjamges, as well as Legendaries finally becoming more common, Affliction changed from a meme spec into a !@#$%^- powerhouse overnight. No matter how hard people complained (like they do now), Affliction Warlock became the king of Nighthold, a very strong competitor in Tomb of Sargeras, and the king again of Antorus

But it also was very boring. The playstyle was literally apply dots, drain soul, rinse and repeat...there was really not much skill needed to play Affliction, especially towards the end of Legion which I was a little disappointed about


Okay, I understand what you're saying with this but if you read my entire post you would have seen that I was proposing making DS a baseline spell that is *separate* from and does *not* replace shadow bolt. For 80% of any fight, SB would be the filler in this case, then it would shift sub 20% boss health or with low health adds for sniping shards.
Making Drain Soul a baseline spell in addition to Shadowbolt as a main filler would mean improving our shard generation on fights with quick dying adds. Honestly, it could work, though it might be somewhat challenging to balance. Who knows, the Blizz class dev team has really surprised us with BfA so far, anything is possible.
They shouldn't have brought SB back period. All they had to do was remove DL from DS.

Id like it to be a base execute again as well Op if they are going to force SB on us.

The data you mention was brought up in beta funny enough, its how blizz go about killing a play style instead of growing a pair of balls and removing it if that's what they want to do (and it is what they want to do).

Id take MG or DS everyday of the week over SB
It isnt SUPPOSED to be taken all time.

The ONLY reason they re-added it as a talent was casue ppl QQ'd about liking that playstyle.

It isnt something they want to be the top choice.
11/11/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Lockedheart
It isnt SUPPOSED to be taken all time.

The ONLY reason they re-added it as a talent was casue ppl QQ'd about liking that playstyle.

It isnt something they want to be the top choice.


Like I said, surprising us all the time with how much our feedback is ignored though. Not optimal is one thing, but worse than not having a talent is just poor design. They could have made it baseline and made a different talent instead. What they did was make a talent tier only have two choices and removed Drain Soul from our spellbook completely. Bigger issue is that we do good damage on Raid Bosses right now, so we are unlikely to get any changes at all for the rest of the expansion that actually do anything to resolve any of these issues. XD
11/11/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Lockedheart
It isnt SUPPOSED to be taken all time.


No talent should be bis for everything and yet DB is

11/11/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Lockedheart
The ONLY reason they re-added it as a talent was casue ppl QQ'd about liking that playstyle.


So they had so many people QQ about it, That Blizzard felt obligated to keep it, but make it so weak, that untalented is better? Awesome signs of great dev's there. Don't listen to the player base or more importantly the players who actually are not FOTM re rollers who have played the class for years. This stinks of Demo from Wod to Legion no one asked for the removal of Meta, no one asked for it to be fully redesigned.

11/11/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Lockedheart
It isnt something they want to be the top choice.


See DB
11/10/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Kulrülk
They shouldn't have brought SB back period. All they had to do was remove DL from DS.


Let me just say this. The problem is not them removing DS from baseline. The problem is making DS and Nightfall compete with Deathbolt. They can never compete. ot to mention DS being a dps loss over having nothing at all. Theres currently 0 situation where you would even consider the other 2 talents over DB and thats awful design no matter how you slice it.

11/10/2018 02:40 AMPosted by Ghazgkul
And IMO, it was a little stupid


What was stupid was the healing component not drain soul itself.
The problem is not them removing DS from baseline.


Yeh it is, SB should have never made a come back imo. If we are to keep it then DS should be a base execute.

A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells

11/12/2018 05:59 AMPosted by Izuni
What was stupid was the healing component not drain soul itself.


No one disagrees with you on this, as many said pre bfa just remove DL component from DS
How to properly fix:

  • Make Drain Soul baseline with Shadow Bolt.
  • Nerf its damage but significantly buff its execute damage so it becomes filler sub 25%.
  • Change talent to buff its regular damage only so those who want it to be their only filler can have it, and the rest of us can keep Shadow Bolt and also gain an execute.
11/10/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Gnåstygnorc

Okay, I understand what you're saying with this but if you read my entire post you would have seen that I was proposing making DS a baseline spell that is *separate* from and does *not* replace shadow bolt. For 80% of any fight, SB would be the filler in this case, then it would shift sub 20% boss health or with low health adds for sniping shards.


You mean like it was in Lich King. And Cata, i'm pretty sure.

I'm all for more base spells that have a niche. We used to have 3 drains. I had them all bound for when they were useful.
This whole situation was something I brought up on the beta forums multiple times.

The drain soul talent is broken and has been known to do less damage then taking no talent since beta after the first nerf to it. -

personally if we are not looking for drastic changes to the spec then I think
We should have SB and DS baseline and it should function like it did in WoTLK and CATA -

SB until execute range and then Drain Soul for shards per several ticks and to boost execute damage.

Make the current drain soul talent - Boost the damage outside of execute range so that you have a legion style talent option allowing players to not use SB if they choose.
I really don't like the death bolt play style. I really wish they would buff nightfall or drainsoul so there was an alternative
11/13/2018 12:40 AMPosted by Darkumzqt
I really don't like the death bolt play style. I really wish they would buff nightfall or drainsoul so there was an alternative

Same. I understand the thought process behind the spell but in practice it's just used on cooldown...thats it. Apply one UA as it comes off cooldown and you're good to go. The rest is just a priority list; use haunt when its off CD, refresh dots, spam SB. This to me is just robotic playstyle; the only optimizing you can do is try to fit as many shadowbolts as you can in between priority CDs.

Baking contagion into UA also forces you to just keep uptime on the spell for the debuff. Outside of the opener you never really use more than one UA at a time unless the fight lasts more than three minutes and you can repeat the opening sequence with darkglare again.

With MG you could pool shards (via sniping in some instances) for a massive UA drain cycle which I personally would greatly prefer over a 3 minute darkglare cycle with mostly shadowbolting in between. Maybe that's just me, but who knows. I assume enough people wanted SB for them to bring it back, though I'll never understand this preference.
Personally I dislike drain soul as a filler, while I also love shadowbolt as a filler. I believe we can have both shadowbolt for sustained dps on patchwerk fights and drain soul for snipping shards on add heavy fights. They keep having this tug of war and I don't care what we get at this point.
11/13/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Areliu
Personally I dislike drain soul as a filler, while I also love shadowbolt as a filler. I believe we can have both shadowbolt for sustained dps on patchwerk fights and drain soul for snipping shards on add heavy fights. They keep having this tug of war and I don't care what we get at this point.


DS has been in the game as long as SB , it should be a base execute if they are going to force !@#$ty SB on us then blizzard should 1)buff DS so people can actually use it or 2) Make the DS talent a 35% execute while making it base

Deathbolt and UA stacking are the worst thing to happen to AFF it has zero Rot and Decay play style anymore, its just 3 min cd ST killing machine with one of the most boring rotations ever made , all people who tested this %^-* and said aff is good should uninstall the game.
Let's go back to the good old days where sb hit like a truck and nightfall procs were devastating yet we can drain life to survive and drain soul to execute.

In all seriousness blizz should consider adding all abilities that you actively press and baking it into each class/spec then the talents would just enhance those spells. We'd all get so many more abilities back it'd be so much fun almost having too many spells for my bars again.
11/13/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Kulrülk
11/13/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Areliu
Personally I dislike drain soul as a filler, while I also love shadowbolt as a filler. I believe we can have both shadowbolt for sustained dps on patchwerk fights and drain soul for snipping shards on add heavy fights. They keep having this tug of war and I don't care what we get at this point.


DS has been in the game as long as SB , it should be a base execute if they are going to force !@#$ty SB on us then blizzard should 1)buff DS so people can actually use it or 2) Make the DS talent a 35% execute while making it base

Deathbolt and UA stacking are the worst thing to happen to AFF it has zero Rot and Decay play style anymore, its just 3 min cd ST killing machine with one of the most boring rotations ever made , all people who tested this %^-* and said aff is good should uninstall the game.


It's really sad to see ua stacking still in the game but I'm assuming people enjoyed it and that's why it was kept. It'd be nice if blizz buffed the endless affliction honor talent where you can only put 1 ua per target that lasts 6 more seconds yet also buffs UA from increasing dot damage by 10% to like 30-40% or flat out increases dot damage.

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