Shaman good in 8.1?

Shaman
Are shamans going to be good/better at PVE in 8.1? Was thinking of making a dark iron shaman and was wondering if it would be worth in in end game. I'm not really a hardcore player but I just don't want to be instantly ignored/not invited to simple mythic+ because of my class. Any feedback would be great. Thanks!
No. Nothing really changed.
The enh changes hadn't been implemented on the PTR as of last night (hoping they are today). They don't seem great, but we will need to do some testing before a judgement is made. I do not have high hopes.
That's too bad, seeing that shaman seems to be such a fun class to play.
11/13/2018 07:04 AMPosted by Kearcha
No. Nothing really changed.


What needs to change?
In terms of spell co-efficients alone Elemental Shaman is receiving a 3% single target buff and a 7-8% buff to cleave/AoE DPS. Then there are numerous talent changes that are significantly buffing the spec further. Just as an example: Stormkeeper was already within 2% of Ascendance on single target, but it was buffed by 150% in 8.1.

Restoration Shaman is receiving a massive buff that is only being understated because people are bad at math. Chain heal is receiving a 33% buff to throughput and High Tides buffs chain heal further into insane levels with an additional flat 20% independently multiplicative modifier and the removal of chain drop off. If you add in Unleash Life and Deluge, Chain heal is now capable of a 1000% spell power heal which puts it at the same level as Holy Priest's Power Word: Sactuary (a 60 second cooldown).

Pair in the improved mana returns due to next tier's higher crit secondaries and Restoration will be the healer that just never has to stop healing, with the largest mana pool by magnitudes over the other healers. That's before you get into the vastly improved Azerites doing things like increasing the radius on Healing Rain and Spiritlink totem. Restoration Shaman is getting some serious love in 8.1. People just aren't happy because Resto isn't getting an external or a spread heal other than Wellspring.

I can't comment on Enhancement because I'll never play it. But seriously, Shaman is looking great in 8.1. The forum community wants one thing: to be overpowered. So if Shaman can't be the best stacked healer, tank healer, spread healer, raid healer, and M+ healer it's trash tier and "nothing has really changed."
11/13/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Thulgrum
In terms of spell co-efficients alone Elemental Shaman is receiving a 3% single target buff and a 7-8% buff to cleave/AoE DPS. Then there are numerous talent changes that are significantly buffing the spec further. Just as an example: Stormkeeper was already within 2% of Ascendance on single target, but it was buffed by 150% in 8.1.

Restoration Shaman is receiving a massive buff that is only being understated because people are bad at math. Chain heal is receiving a 33% buff to throughput and High Tides buffs chain heal further into insane levels with an additional flat 20% independently multiplicative modifier and the removal of chain drop off. If you add in Unleash Life and Deluge, Chain heal is now capable of a 1000% spell power heal which puts it at the same level as Holy Priest's Power Word: Sactuary (a 60 second cooldown).

Pair in the improved mana returns due to next tier's higher crit secondaries and Restoration will be the healer that just never has to stop healing, with the largest mana pool by magnitudes over the other healers. That's before you get into the vastly improved Azerites doing things like increasing the radius on Healing Rain and Spiritlink totem. Restoration Shaman is getting some serious love in 8.1. People just aren't happy because Resto isn't getting an external or a spread heal other than Wellspring.

I can't comment on Enhancement because I'll never play it. But seriously, Shaman is looking great in 8.1. The forum community wants one thing: to be overpowered. So if Shaman can't be the best stacked healer, tank healer, spread healer, raid healer, and M+ healer it's trash tier and "nothing has really changed."


I think the changes are great and are a step in the right direction.
HOWEVER, I believe there’s many of us that think Enhancement Shaman talents are really uninspired and quite honestly flat.
The tuning has been on point but I would’ve been more ecstatic with actual innovative talent options like Elemental’s Surge of Power.
11/13/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Alyuzandro
I think the changes are great and are a step in the right direction.
HOWEVER, I believe there’s many of us that think Enhancement Shaman talents are really uninspired and quite honestly flat.
The tuning has been on point but I would’ve been more ecstatic with actual innovative talent options like Elemental’s Surge of Power.

I'm not convinced Surge of Power is that innovative. It's just going to turn into "if you have x talents set up do y after Earth shock, if you have a talents set up , do b after Earth Shock."

Honestly, I'm hoping, praying, Primal Elementalist won't be so clearly dominant. I hate the talent, but its the most powerful talent in its row by too large of a margin to consider anything else.
11/13/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Thulgrum
11/13/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Alyuzandro
I think the changes are great and are a step in the right direction.
HOWEVER, I believe there’s many of us that think Enhancement Shaman talents are really uninspired and quite honestly flat.
The tuning has been on point but I would’ve been more ecstatic with actual innovative talent options like Elemental’s Surge of Power.

I'm not convinced Surge of Power is that innovative. It's just going to turn into "if you have x talents set up do y after Earth shock, if you have a talents set up , do b after Earth Shock."

Honestly, I'm hoping, praying, Primal Elementalist won't be so clearly dominant. I hate the talent, but its the most powerful talent in its row by too large of a margin to consider anything else.

Yeah I also have a love hate relationship with the current Primal Elementalist talent.
On one hand it’s a unique pet based powerful cooldown upgrade with pet abilities and powerful mini spells.
On the other hand it’s “cookie cutter” to use it because its so much goodness packed into one talent.
Enhancement doesn’t even have a cool talent like that to play with. The most we have is Sundering which makes us feel powerful but besides that what else is there that makes the Enhance tree exciting?
11/13/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Thulgrum
Restoration Shaman is receiving a massive buff that is only being understated because people are bad at math. Chain heal is receiving a 33% buff to throughput and High Tides buffs chain heal further into insane levels with an additional flat 20% independently multiplicative modifier and the removal of chain drop off. If you add in Unleash Life and Deluge, Chain heal is now capable of a 1000% spell power heal which puts it at the same level as Holy Priest's Power Word: Sactuary (a 60 second cooldown).


I like how you throw in deluge to try and put it over the top, like there is a situation where that talent is picked by anyone looking to be competitive.

The problem isn't math, the problem is that resto will still be looked at as not having poison/disease cleanse, an external, or a proper brez and will still be considered a subpar m+ pick compared to other healers that have some of those other tools. Throughput is more of a raid issue, which will be much improved with ch being better to cast, but most of the raid complaints about throughput fell off after the aura+surge buff we got hotfixed in.

Both dps specs will benefit from the dps boost they're getting, but the real serious issues are gameplay, which don't look to be fixed with the 8.1 changes. Especially enhancements where they ignored all of the issues and just did tuning and seem to have called it a day at the end of the ptr, I can't wait for the next Q&A where they say they ran out of time...again.
11/13/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Twisp
like how you throw in deluge to try and put it over the top, like there is a situation where that talent is picked by anyone looking to be competitive.

The problem isn't math, the problem is that resto will still be looked at as not having poison/disease cleanse, an external, or a proper brez and will still be considered a subpar m+ pick compared to other healers that have some of those other tools.


yeeee, not having a janky Brez would be dope, but I'm personally excited for the chain heal buff. I'm not a huge fan of our current options in M+.

But serious question, how high do you want / expect to push your keys?

It's nice having optimists like Thulgrum posting. I'm not convinced shaman's are as bad as everyone is exclaiming in M+.
11/13/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Twisp
I like how you throw in deluge to try and put it over the top, like there is a situation where that talent is picked by anyone looking to be competitive.

The problem isn't math, the problem is that resto will still be looked at as not having poison/disease cleanse, an external, or a proper brez and will still be considered a subpar m+ pick compared to other healers that have some of those other tools. Throughput is more of a raid issue, which will be much improved with ch being better to cast, but most of the raid complaints about throughput fell off after the aura+surge buff we got hotfixed in.

Both dps specs will benefit from the dps boost they're getting, but the real serious issues are gameplay, which don't look to be fixed with the 8.1 changes. Especially enhancements where they ignored all of the issues and just did tuning and seem to have called it a day at the end of the ptr, I can't wait for the next Q&A where they say they ran out of time...again.

Deluge isn't picked because Chain Heal sucks. Why are you pretending Chain Heal output and Deluge viability are not directly linked?

If you think the gameplay sucks, why don't you go play a healer with better gameplay? Could it be because those other healers have significant drawbacks to their gameplay that make them less desirable for you than Resto Shaman?

11/13/2018 02:00 PMPosted by Mangymutt
It's nice having optimists like Thulgrum posting. I'm not convinced shaman's are as bad as everyone is exclaiming in M+.

Honestly, I'm not an optimist I'm a realist. I have a very unique trait not shared by almost anyone else on the official forums: I do M+ and raid with multiple specs on multiple classes. I don't whine that Resto Druid has battle rez because I understand they're the only healer with battle rez. I don't shriek about Elemental mobility because I understand what it's like to actually try out Glacial Spike Frost, Arcane, and Balance in a raid setting.

The big problem with the forums is it's a gaggle of people who play typically one spec of one class, not to a particularly high skill level at that, and then complain they aren't doing as well as they think they deserve to and beg to be more like classes they don't play. All you need to do is spend 1 week on another class' forums. That's it. One week and you get to understand the magnitude of silly, infantile whining about how bad EVERY class in the game is apparently except the FOTM. Oh and if you want a real pee-your-pants laugh fest, head to one of the FOTM forums. Their opinion? "We're finally just decent." Every 3% nerf while they're overperforming median by 10%, "zomg we're bottom barrel now, for the first time in years we were just mediocre." Honestly, I'm sick to death of it and just don't have the patience for the out-of-this-world delusional whining anymore.
I wonder how much the Uldir stacking buff has been skewing the data lately?
11/13/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Magmir
I wonder how much the Uldir stacking buff has been skewing the data lately?


As long as you have 2 pieces a d are aware what the buff changes and how it effects you and your stats individually you are fine.

I have mine to give me a crit buff and i sit at 28% crit, 12% haste and 40% mastery
didnt blizzard say they were going to smooth out enhancements rotation?????
unless they drastically change class utility, no. There's almost zero shaman representation in the higher end M+ dungeons or in mythic raids (outside of guilds who have them on farm and let people bring whatever). Shaman is also about to be neutered in PvP, so there's not much appeal there anymore either. Class is dead in 8.1 unless the Ele buffs are game-changing.

Deluge isn't picked because Chain Heal sucks. Why are you pretending Chain Heal output and Deluge viability are not directly linked?

If you think the gameplay sucks, why don't you go play a healer with better gameplay? Could it be because those other healers have significant drawbacks to their gameplay that make them less desirable for you than Resto Shaman?

11/13/2018 02:00 PMPosted by Mangymutt
It's nice having optimists like Thulgrum posting. I'm not convinced shaman's are as bad as everyone is exclaiming in M+.

Honestly, I'm not an optimist I'm a realist. I have a very unique trait not shared by almost anyone else on the official forums: I do M+ and raid with multiple specs on multiple classes. I don't whine that Resto Druid has battle rez because I understand they're the only healer with battle rez. I don't shriek about Elemental mobility because I understand what it's like to actually try out Glacial Spike Frost, Arcane, and Balance in a raid setting.

The big problem with the forums is it's a gaggle of people who play typically one spec of one class, not to a particularly high skill level at that, and then complain they aren't doing as well as they think they deserve to and beg to be more like classes they don't play. All you need to do is spend 1 week on another class' forums. That's it. One week and you get to understand the magnitude of silly, infantile whining about how bad EVERY class in the game is apparently except the FOTM. Oh and if you want a real pee-your-pants laugh fest, head to one of the FOTM forums. Their opinion? "We're finally just decent." Every 3% nerf while they're overperforming median by 10%, "zomg we're bottom barrel now, for the first time in years we were just mediocre." Honestly, I'm sick to death of it and just don't have the patience for the out-of-this-world delusional whining anymore.


LOL that is NOT why Deluge isn't picked. You're deluding yourself for the sake of arguing against people that have valid criticism against the current state of the spec. Deluge is WAY too unreliable to see any competitive value out of it, there is essentially no guarantee that chain heal will receive buffed healing from the talent in any scenario, especially M+.

33% is not "massive", it's relatively large. But hopefully it is enough to put us in the same spot as MW for M+, in that our shortcomings are negated by the fact that we can out-heal anything. Given that MW can dispel disease and poison, AND they have a pseudo-external (and shaman has neither of those), I'm not very optimistic. You could say I'm a realist as long as you don't let your "QQ the sky is falling" preconceptions get in the way.

No one is saying the spec "sucks", I actually think it's really fun. That doesn't magically mean that it should be void of criticism and that it can't improve in any way.
11/14/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Frogwater
LOL that is NOT why Deluge isn't picked. You're deluding yourself for the sake of arguing against people that have valid criticism against the current state of the spec. Deluge is WAY too unreliable to see any competitive value out of it, there is essentially no guarantee that chain heal will receive buffed healing from the talent in any scenario, especially M+.

You are aware that Deluge works every time on targets affected by Riptide and who are current standing in your Healing Rain, right? It's not a proc. It's 100% reliable assuming your group is standing where they should be in content where it should shine, specifically stacked healing. The fact that chain heal sucks in 8.0 so badly half of raiding Shamans take it off their bar is the reason it's not used ever, regardless of your uninformed protestations to the contrary.

11/14/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Frogwater
33% is not "massive", it's relatively large. But hopefully it is enough to put us in the same spot as MW for M+, in that our shortcomings are negated by the fact that we can out-heal anything. Given that MW can dispel disease and poison, AND they have a pseudo-external (and shaman has neither of those), I'm not very optimistic. You could say I'm a realist as long as you don't let your "QQ the sky is falling" preconceptions get in the way.

No one is saying the spec "sucks", I actually think it's really fun. That doesn't magically mean that it should be void of criticism and that it can't improve in any way.

Was it really worth your time to be combative for such silly pedantry? Most buffs for spells/abilities are an uptick of 5-10%. So yes, 33% is a massive buff. And no one is saying the spec "sucks?" Have you been on these forums? Have you paid attention the the front page declaring "Resto Shaman is dead", "Resto Shaman is trash tier", "Resto Shaman warming the bench"? Tons of people are saying the spec sucks, specifically due to uninformed posts like yours who think a talent stays unusable despite a 33% buff to its talent synergy specifically in a tier with weak HPS options.
Deluge isn't picked because Chain Heal sucks. Why are you pretending Chain Heal output and Deluge viability are not directly linked?

If you think the gameplay sucks, why don't you go play a healer with better gameplay? Could it be because those other healers have significant drawbacks to their gameplay that make them less desirable for you than Resto Shaman?


No, deluges design is just bad. It's not related to the viability of chain heal in the slightest.

The fact that chain heal is a true smart heal that will seek out the lowest health target which can be outside of your healing rain or without riptide, and the fact that targets in rain/have riptide are being healed and can be higher health than those not receiving that additional healing greatly reduces its potential value. The fact that chain heals mana cost makes it fairly prohibitive to use enough to even try to get a ton of value out of deluge on a stacked fight with constant damage Fights just don't work with deluges design. The greater versatility EotE gives or the st healing boost ES provides are better in every situation. This was consistent through Legion (especially where it competed with AG in raids and CW in m+) and it's going to be consistent again in BFA without changes or a really janky fight that finally gives it a chance to shine. Even something like Vectis where everyone should be stacked in your rain isn't really a good contender for the talent because most of the actual healing to be done is actually single target. Vari last tier wasn't because the heal immunity debuff would kill chain heal jumps.

Also I never said anything about wanting to quit shaman over m+ viability. I'm just aware of where we're lacking compared to other healers and answering OP's question about m+ viability in regards to resto and how it really isn't going to change as far as trying to pug. I just care about doing my 10 and being done for the week and that's not something I have any trouble doing within my guild. I've only put the effort in leveling the monk so far, but had leveled and played every healer in some level of raid and most of them in m+ last expansion by the end of it. Sure, every healer has some drawback, but some have less drawbacks for the content and more strengths. My legion paladin was 20-30 ilvl behind my shaman and could do a 15 in time easier than my shaman despite being more comfortable and more experienced as a shaman. It was just a reality of what tools they had at the time.

So no, it's not whining that we don't have a traditional brez or external as knowing that when you only have 5 players to pick from, you are going to want to try and make sure you have ways to handle things with the comp you bring. Shamans main additional utility is interrupts (which every dps and tank can really do), aoe stun (which several classes can do, one racial) or purging (which can be done by several other classes, and is also a racial).

Which is really the main problem with shaman, both in high end raiding and higher keys. They don't really bring anything to the table that almost any other class can do better. DPS or HPS numbers can only do so much for a spec when you have to compete for a group spot. Hell, every reason I gave for shaman utility in m+...a warlock can do and they get a brez.

As someone who spends all day among those who are dealing with shaman at the top of the skill level on Discord. I think I have some position to speak about the concerns of the class, especially where resto shaman is concern.
It's not a proc. It's 100% reliable assuming your group is standing where they should be in content where it should shine, specifically stacked healing. The fact that chain heal sucks in 8.0 so badly half of raiding Shamans take it off their bar is the reason it's not used ever, regardless of your uninformed protestations to the contrary.


You seem confused about both the nature of the talent and the definition of reliable. You're essentially arguing that Deluge sucks because chain heal sucks, as if chain heal is reliably getting buffed healing from Deluge. It isn't, and an increase to chain healing's spell power coefficient doesn't magically increase this Deluge buff reliability. Give your head a shake.

11/14/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Thulgrum
Was it really worth your time to be combative for such silly pedantry? Most buffs for spells/abilities are an uptick of 5-10%. So yes, 33% is a massive buff. And no one is saying the spec "sucks?" Have you been on these forums? Have you paid attention the the front page declaring "Resto Shaman is dead", "Resto Shaman is trash tier", "Resto Shaman warming the bench"? Tons of people are saying the spec sucks, specifically due to uninformed posts like yours who think a talent stays unusable despite a 33% buff to its talent synergy specifically in a tier with weak HPS options.


Me addressing your use of the word massive takes up one sentence. In an entire paragraph. So yes, it was worth it to say that one thing. I love how that's the only part of my post you're capable of replying to, ignoring everything else that you can't argue against. You say my post is uninformed, but don't elaborate on exactly how.

You and I are talking about Resto specifically, so using the plethora of (arguably valid) posts that our DPS specs "suck" as an example to argue that people are saying Resto sucks is a non-sequitor. Get rekt bb.

Also, Twisp is disagreeing with you. If you don't even know who that is then it leads me to believe that you don't actually keep up to date with the Rsham community.

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