Method is Ruining the Game (and E-sports)

General Discussion
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10/06/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Bighoffie
And yet millions of people continue to watch real sports, so your oscars comparison is terrible and wrong. And just like I can have fun shooting hoops with some buddies without thinking i need to buy a hyperbaric chamber like lebron, plenty of people can play the game the way they like without having to emulate Method in all things. I cant say I read most of this drivel, but your entire premise is so off i dont feel bad about that.


because its like watching a train wreck you cant look away it doesnt mean its good or healthy for the industry/game
Dude, Method plays on the PTR.

All of us, as players, have the PTR available to us to play on as well. Method doesn't get special treatment, they just have the brains to get on the PTR and test the raids that will be released. How about you go try the PTR sometime as well and stop crying about it?

"Let me make a whole big huge post on WoW forums crying about how casual of a player I am and how I can never be as good as other people!"

Yes, Method is better than you. Are people SERIOUSLY complaining about this? There will always be players better than you. There will always be players in ANY game that dedicate a good portion of their life to it.

Smh, how sad.
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
which is comprised of former top raiders from around that world that are now Blizzard employees. Which means


Let me finish this line for you "the game will always be raid centric becasue literally we hire raiders for input".

Yeah, I know, that isn't what you said but it is what alot of us feel. What you have to realize is that 'pros' do not make up your player base, common ordinary people do. So when the OP logs on and he isn't sparked by the game he can only look for apparent things that might be a factor in what he sees as a game that is off the rails.

Let us look at mission tables for starters. Yes, your spreadsheets might show that people use them and I am certain that is equated with liking them and that is patiently untrue....I hate them but I will still use them while passing past them. Do I think it is meat n potato content...no. Do I think it should be in an RPGMMO...no. Do I think that other MMORPG elements would of fit in better...yes. Will I miss them if they are gone....no. How does this fit into this conversation?

We see problems with the game as whole and alot of these issues seem bent towards placating raiders. Take garrisons for instance....what was the purpose of those? Well, from my point of view it was the kinda thing that would be perfect for anyone not interested in playing the game or being out in the world and literally just wanted to raid but get all the perks of not actually playing the game.....just one of those things that is put in the game and the player base says "er...wha".

By the way this isn't me being snarky but you commented about the OP not having proof of subs numbers but it is not like you added any proof of the numbers yourself there sparky.
10/08/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Timegatethis
10/06/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Bighoffie
And yet millions of people continue to watch real sports, so your oscars comparison is terrible and wrong. And just like I can have fun shooting hoops with some buddies without thinking i need to buy a hyperbaric chamber like lebron, plenty of people can play the game the way they like without having to emulate Method in all things. I cant say I read most of this drivel, but your entire premise is so off i dont feel bad about that.


because its like watching a train wreck you cant look away it doesnt mean its good or healthy for the industry/game


Wrong, I watch the arena tournaments and love it. I also watch pros stream. People like to watch good players play. How is that surprising to people?
10/08/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Timegatethis
10/06/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Bighoffie
And yet millions of people continue to watch real sports, so your oscars comparison is terrible and wrong. And just like I can have fun shooting hoops with some buddies without thinking i need to buy a hyperbaric chamber like lebron, plenty of people can play the game the way they like without having to emulate Method in all things. I cant say I read most of this drivel, but your entire premise is so off i dont feel bad about that.


because its like watching a train wreck you cant look away it doesnt mean its good or healthy for the industry/game

So wait, how exactly is esports and competition bad for the game?

Unless you actually believe Method, or any top player, wants Blizzard dumbing down the game so much and giving out welfare gear left, right, and center?

The only thing that caters to hardcore raiders, is the fact that Blizzard keeps Mythic difficult and in tact thanks to adding 3 other difficulties that suit everyone else so there's not a constant whining about Mythic being too hard.
10/08/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Dliver
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
I don't know why people keep parroting that subs are "hemorrhaging" despite having 0 data to back it up. On our end literally nothing indicates that that is happening.

Does that mean Blizz will release sub data again?
No atleast it proves they aren't going down like people think looks like the internet is about explode trying to guess what are subs are at now.
This is a sensitive human being right here, this game caters to YOU. The casual player. The top 5% is exactly that. Go get some warm milk, enjoy the game that is undoubtedly casual and stop complaining.
Butthurt meter off the charts. Git Gud
The game is whatever you want it to be. You have 6 expansions of quests, dungeons and raids you can solo over and over and over again with multiple levels in the last couple. Soon Legion will be the 7th. If you dont want to solo, you can group up in the new expansion and group/raid all you want. Or maybe you want to pvp. All server world pvp now exists plus a plethora of other pvp sources. If you cant find something to do, or find some fun, then you arent looking or its time to retire to a phone game or whatever
Funny thing is people agreeing with OP claiming Method is the only guild to get to test Mythics which is totally bull!@#$, they even stream their progression so you can go watch them progressing each bosses from wiping at 90% to killing them.

Like posting false statement without backups is idiotic, but posting wall of texts why you agree with that false statement must be another level of brain damage.

And there’s the guy saying the world first is nothing special since they do it with addons while he himself only do LFRs, impressive.
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
I don't know why people keep parroting that subs are "hemorrhaging" despite having 0 data to back it up.


So post the data then.
You hear that WoW haters subs aren't going down at all amazeing expansion blizzard well done!
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
I don't know why people keep parroting


Yes you completely do.
The amount of contradictions in one single post is too high.
10/08/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Sungamnori
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
I don't know why people keep parroting that subs are "hemorrhaging" despite having 0 data to back it up.


So post the data then.
They never had to show us anything in the first place we got lucky we had any info at all for those years be thankful.
I agree with a LOT of what the OP is saying here. BUT (there's always a but isn't there? LOL) ......I don't agree with the tone of "you don't have to play that hard but if you don't you'll be made to feel like crap".....

That's the part here that is frustrating to read. Especially because so many people seem to like the OPs message.

YOUR mindset .....is under YOUR control. Not a top rank world guild's control, not some random stranger you see in game today when you log in to play, not a guildie's control. ITS YOURS. (This is a such a huge thing with me you have no idea...because it extents well beyond World of Warcraft, or any game.... look at the news...social media, etc. today is nothing but "This is how the masses think you better be on board with them. PERIOD". That's why 2018 is a scary time to live in.... no one has spine anymore. No one thinks for themselves. )

Bringing it back to just a computer game.....if you don't want to play that hard or whatever your deal is just don't. I don't give a rat's behind, never really have, how elite some guild is in this game. I don't care how good YOU are in this game. Its a game man. You do your thing I'll do mine. If we each have fun...goal accomplished right?
10/06/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Enabrann
Method got World First Uldir (what a surprise), and while they celebrated Blizzard was running around in panic mode because they were haemorrhaging subscribers.

But how is that possible? Surely Method rubbing their World First awesomeness into our faces is supposed to make us want to play this game? Isn't that how e-sports work?

Blizzard is trying to make World of Warcraft into an e-sport and this is destroying the game.
I have attached links to Blizzcon 2005 World of Warcraft panels, where they explain the original design philosophies of World of Warcraft, and we can see how far the game has gone away from those principles, and how e-sports (and Method) are making it worse.

1) Blizzcon 2005 Warcraft Raid Design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ

0:56 "We have to give players something to aspire to"

In Vanilla wow, when you saw someone in awesome Raid or PVP gear, you said "I wanna be like that guy", and then became inspired to raid and pvp.

E-sports completely destroy that feeling.

You can't aspire to E-sports, the average player watching Method trying to down G'huun after 280 wipes can in no way shape or form aspire to that. You have to quit your job and play this game 14 hours a day just to keep up.

1:13 "The world feels a lot bigger when there is unbeaten content out there"

Interesting fact, Alex Afrasiabi was a top Everquest Raider, and Blizzard asked him not to get World first Onyxia when Vanilla wow launched.
Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alex_Afrasiabi

This is because "Blizzard felt too many people would think they had inside knowledge if they continued this achievement trend in WoW."

Unlike today where Method internally test the raids for Blizzard before anyone has even seen them, and then proceed to down them immediately upon release. If Method didn't get to test raids, would they still get World Firsts?

Imagine when Classic Wow releases and Method gets World First Ragnaros on the first WEEK? How will that make you feel as a lvl 14 player killing Quilboars?

It's like the negative psychological effects of Beauty standards nowadays, where the media present unrealistic standards and all it leads to is eating disorders and negative psychological impacts.
Source: Psychology Today

Simply put, the extremes that Method and e-sports represent are making people not want to play this game.


7:17 "We want to challenge the player so they feel a sense of accomplishment"

Jeff Kaplan: "You could turn that nob of difficulty up on the players....but if you ratchet it up too high, it creates a lot of frustration"

When people see Method playing this game 14 hours a day, and wiping over 600 times in a World First race, what impression does this give the playerbase?

"Do I have to do that?" Technically you don't have to, but it's like the unrealistic Beauty standards I mentioned earlier, you technically don't have to be a top end raider, but you will sure be made to feel like excrement if you're not.

13:43 "A lot of players wanted Blackwing Liar kept off the PTR, so players wanted a sense of competition and surprise"

Where is the "Competition" where Method gets to test all these raids, and then proceed to always get World Firsts? That's like having a Jeopardy show and Method gets to "Test" all the questions.

Also "Surprise"...how do you like having an entire raid spoiled by Method guides? Nowadays you're not allowed to just figure out a raid for yourself, you have to read all the guides, watch all the plays, research a laundry list of pre-BIS gear.

Watching this 2005 Blizzcon panel is an eye-opening experience, because all the problems wow is facing now, THEY KNEW what they were doing back then to avoid these problems.

If Method gets to test these raids, and then always win World First competitions, is that a fair competition?

Should there be an Alex Afrasiabi rule for Method where if you are involved with internal testing, you are not allowed to get World Firsts?

2) Blizzcon 2005 Character Class Panel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioQWkWj5_ss

3:42 "We wanted the paladin to be one of the easier classes to play"

WOW! Blizzard admits Hardcore raiders and elitists are not the centre of the universe! No but really, they designed a class for beginner players.

The problem with Method doing internal testing is they are literally shaping the game for themselves. It's like Blizzard is making a racing car for Method with all sorts of gears, and buttons, and levers, and then expects somebody who just got their driver's licence to drive the car as well as them.

World of Warcraft is becoming a game made by Method for Method, and everyone has to play THEIR game.

16:30 "A lot of players tended to go into the cookie-cutter builds, and it still didn't feel like there was a lot of customisation"

You were never supposed to have a 10 volume Tech manual telling you how to play your class, and more-over, how to play the game.
But undoubtedly E-sports culture has entrenched this nonsense idea that in order to play Wow you have to spend hours doing excel spreadsheets, graphs, theory-crafting seminars, and write a doctoral thesis on why Intellect is better for paladins than Strength.

E-sports pigeon holes everyone into playing the game "the right way", and destroys the elements of individuality and customisation that make the game fun.

3) Blizzcon 2005 Dungeon Design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud9h8UpcC4E

0:16 "When we started out designing World of Warcraft, we realised something that makes an MMO a lot of fun for players is not feeling like they're funnelled through content, like they'd only have one choice at one time"

Hahahahahhahahhahaaha, you hear that Ion? But seriously the way the game is being designed and the way E-sports work is you have to play the "right way", you need to do Island expeditions for Azerite, Mythic dungeons for Raider.io score to then get into Raids that award the best gear....and PVP? Go play Overwatch.

3:39 "Seeing too much of the same thing is tedious"

Seeing "Method World First" is Tedious.

12:00 "It's not bad to take the path of least resistance, but we need to do things as game developers to ensure that your play experience is as fun as possible."

Warfronts.....showering you with loot for zero effort
Maw of Souls...running this 10,000 times to farm AP

The problem is that Method will take the path of least resistance, and because Method is doing it, that means you have to do it.

15:43 "You guys, are part of the development process, this game is being built around you"

Why can't Jeff Kaplan run this game? But nowadays player feedback in Beta is completely ignored, and the only feedback Blizzard cares about is what Method tells them. So by that logic, this game is being built around Method. (No wonder they keep winning).

18:52 "Most players, on what I call level up dungeons, go there once or maybe twice, they don't want to spend a lot of time doing the dungeon over and over again".

Jeff Kaplan: "In fact they get resentful if they feel they have to do the dungeon over and over again"

Hey have you done your normal, heroic, mythic, mythic +1, mythic +2.........Shrine of Storms?

The Mythic Plus invitational has been well received by the community....since they get to watch it, and not have to do it themselves.

E-sports has really turned Wow into TV, where people Vicariously do all the content by watching others do it.

Conclusion

E-sports are turning Wow into an extreme pigeon hole cookie-cutter "you're not playing the right way" (Method Approved) TV show that is going the same route as the Oscars.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5464203/Academy-Awards-ratings-hit-new-low.html
Source: http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-ca-mn-oscars-irrelevant-20180301-story.html

Oscars are losing viewers because Millionaires getting golden trophies for movies that nobody actually watched is the same thing as Method giving themselves a high five for playing a game that everyone has unsubscribed from.

Stop making Wow into an E-sport


The only mistake I have seen Blizzard make so far regarding this post is that they removed the downvote button.

I am sorry and if it garners me a vacation then so be it. But damn is OP an idiot!

All he does is bring up pointless quotes and then make baseless conjectures. I read this post at page one and dismissed it as ignorant drivel that belonged on Sunday but now I see that there are a ton of insanely uninformed people that are parroting of all things, another magnificently uninformed person.
10/08/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Rioslk
This is a sensitive human being right here, this game caters to YOU. The casual player. The top 5% is exactly that. Go get some warm milk, enjoy the game that is undoubtedly casual and stop complaining.


Enjoy the game? My thing is PVP and LW.....for so many xpacs now it seems like a fricken dream. No shiney gear to look at and work towards and LW is useless. At least I had a mount to work for last xpac but for all intent and purpose the last time LW was satisfying was MOP. Op wants to complain that is his right to do so. So do not drop this 'game centers around you casual person guy". Pfft. If it was centered around the casual player I would not be bored stiff with the exception of BGs. It is centered around everyone which might be the real issue at hand here....the game is so spread out that Blizz might not be able to get the butter to the crust....damn that sounded deep.
WoW isn't even a valid esport lmao
10/08/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Tewa
10/08/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
Once a boss is killed now we try not to touch it for a little bit, even if we think its too hard, as we want everyone to have the fair shot to do what they did.


You want everyone to class stack up the wazoo because bringing 5 Rogues to encounters is so much "fun"?

How about taking a hard look at class imbalance, instead?

(And no, I don't mean an occasional 4% change here and there when the gaps are 20% or larger.)


Or maybe it's because they are clearing mythic in full heroic gear and most guilds will be +15 item levels or more higher which smooths that out?

Limit killed mythic Ghuun at 371. Do you think most normal guilds are going to walk in at 371??

They walked into mythic Uldir at 360 and went 7/8 with a 1% wipe on Ghuun but people want to cry about class balance.

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