Feral Depression

Druid
I feel useless as feral. Im at 333 il, tanks at 370 outdpsing me on single target boss fights. I start out high dps around 8k+ but falls through the roof really fast once i no longer have any energy left and the gameplay starts to slow down feeling sluggish after incarnation ends, I try to switch talents around for pve like the ones suggest on icy veins, but still to not much change, with blood scent being a dread recommendation tf. I pvp mostly, but wish I did better in dungeons/raid and I hear 8.1 will be garbage to, adding an aoe finisher.. and placing moonfire and sabertooth on the same row for talents.. I keep getting told to re roll a rogue, but I really do not enjoy that class man, I hate to re roll something because blizzard can't balance properly, this is a major turn off and makes me want to unsub. I am trying to remain loyal to feral, but this is depressing. I have never seen so many boomkins in my life and almost no ferals until this.
There's a large difference in power between 330 ilvl and 370 even if it is compared to a tank.

In dungeons you should be running with Predator, Jagged wounds, brutal slash, and blood talons as talents. Incarnation is only good on short fights and doesnt help your trash mob dps at all. Your pve dungeon rotation for boss fights should be:

before pull regrowth, stealth, 1s before pull Berserk, pull starts with a rake, brutal slash, thrash, brutal slash to 5, hard cast regrowth + TF to instantly go into cat form, Rip refresh Rake, brutal slash and shred spam till 5 combo points, use instant regrowth, FB, then play it by timers.

This changes slightly if using a single target raid talent setup with Li, Jw, sabertooth, BT.

before pull regrowth, stealth, 1s before pull Berserk + TF, pull starts with a rake, moonfire to 5 combo points, Rip, thrash, spam shred to 5 combo points, use instant regrowth, FB, then refresh rake. Then you're just keeping up rake, thrash, moonfire dots while using FB.

The above rotation is basically exactly how your pvp rotation will be as well minus using berserk and TF (since you'll prob be taking incarn) as you want that as needed depending on the situation.

Stack a ton of haste, sim your character to find out its optimal dps. Make sure to sim once with all raid buffs and then once again with no raid buffs so you can find see the difference.

At 370 ilvl in M+ 10 dungeons I do 13-15k dps on boss fights with aoe on 5 targets around 17k or more depending on duration adds live. Keep in mind if playing with equal skilled players who are on the "meta" classes you will have to work way harder to still do less dps. However, if you get really good at feral you can easily out dps any average player.

Let me know if you have any more questions.
10/23/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Pidooma
There's a large difference in power between 330 ilvl and 370 even if it is compared to a tank.

In dungeons you should be running with Predator, Jagged wounds, brutal slash, and blood talons as talents. Incarnation is only good on short fights and doesnt help your trash mob dps at all. Your pve dungeon rotation for boss fights should be:

before pull regrowth, stealth, 1s before pull Berserk, pull starts with a rake, brutal slash, thrash, brutal slash to 5, hard cast regrowth + TF to instantly go into cat form, Rip refresh Rake, brutal slash and shred spam till 5 combo points, use instant regrowth, FB, then play it by timers.

This changes slightly if using a single target raid talent setup with Li, Jw, sabertooth, BT.

before pull regrowth, stealth, 1s before pull Berserk + TF, pull starts with a rake, moonfire to 5 combo points, Rip, thrash, spam shred to 5 combo points, use instant regrowth, FB, then refresh rake. Then you're just keeping up rake, thrash, moonfire dots while using FB.

The above rotation is basically exactly how your pvp rotation will be as well minus using berserk and TF (since you'll prob be taking incarn) as you want that as needed depending on the situation.

Stack a ton of haste, sim your character to find out its optimal dps. Make sure to sim once with all raid buffs and then once again with no raid buffs so you can find see the difference.

At 370 ilvl in M+ 10 dungeons I do 13-15k dps on boss fights with aoe on 5 targets around 17k or more depending on duration adds live. Keep in mind if playing with equal skilled players who are on the "meta" classes you will have to work way harder to still do less dps. However, if you get really good at feral you can easily out dps any average player.

Let me know if you have any more questions.


this makes me feel reassured if you are playing it that well. I will try this, but trash? People tell me its not worth wasting energy to keep trash activate on a boss for the little amount of damage it does?
There is a surprisingly large amount of misinformation that has been spread around. Not all of it is intentional or due to people's "feelcrafting" and could be due to the random buffs we've gotten over time. Either that or people are trying to play bfa feral in the same manner as they did on their post 7.3 legion feral. Which simply does not work anymore.

It is a small increase in dps on single target without related traits. With the traits it's a big difference and wild fleshrending is one of our better pve traits. If you dont have the traits it wont be a huge loss of dps as it's basically a shred replacement based on damage per energy assuming you get full value of the dot.

In dungeons it's basically always worth putting up. You'll use your BT stacks on tab raking if 2 targets. Use them on Brutal slash first if 3-4 targets. If 5 or more use your first stack on thrash then brutal slash. Of course once your brutal slash stacks are gone you can feel free to use them on tab raking again. When things are properly bled is when you can use an on use haste trinket ,like the one from shrine, to watch your dps climb since your bleeds react to haste retroactively.
10/23/2018 12:50 PMPosted by Pidooma
There is a surprisingly large amount of misinformation that has been spread around. Not all of it is intentional or due to people's "feelcrafting" and could be due to the random buffs we've gotten over time. Either that or people are trying to play bfa feral in the same manner as they did on their post 7.3 legion feral. Which simply does not work anymore.

It is a small increase in dps on single target without related traits. With the traits it's a big difference and wild fleshrending is one of our better pve traits. If you dont have the traits it wont be a huge loss of dps as it's basically a shred replacement based on damage per energy assuming you get full value of the dot.

In dungeons it's basically always worth putting up. You'll use your BT stacks on tab raking if 2 targets. Use them on Brutal slash first if 3-4 targets. If 5 or more use your first stack on thrash then brutal slash. Of course once your brutal slash stacks are gone you can feel free to use them on tab raking again. When things are properly bled is when you can use an on use haste trinket ,like the one from shrine, to watch your dps climb since your bleeds react to haste retroactively.


I just dont seem to have enough energy to keep maintaining that single target rotation of thrash, rake, mf, either one of them falls off and i can finally get it back on due to energy starvation or i get lucky with omen procs, feels gimped. Is it because im spamming shred as a filler inbetween before the dots are ready to be reapplied?? Trying to maintain the single target rotation with the talents u gave me just causes my dps to decline after struggling for a while. Ugh, i bet this feels much better with a lot of haste, gimped by stat.
Most people fail at the rotation due to over spamming shred and shred does laughably low damage. All your damage is going to come from bleeds and FB. Also make sure you aren't refreshing your dots too late. There's an optimal pandemic window where you can refresh them, which gives you more time than just waiting till right before they expire.

As long as your dots aren't falling off and you dont cap on energy you can sit there and pool energy and it wont be a dps loss. You'll find if you're doing the rotation correctly you spend a decent amount of time just auto attacking as you pool energy and plan your next moves.

I normally look at it like, okay will rip expire before rake, thrash and moonfire? If yes then I better spam to 4-5 combo points and sit to pool energy (you have to do this anyway to make sure you always FB with 50 or more energy). If one of the other dots is going to fall off and rip still has plenty of time I'll pool energy while preparing to refresh them as they come in only shredding to stop myself from capping energy. Energy classes are kind of odd like that. Feral more so than the rest tbf.
10/23/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Pidooma
Also make sure you aren't refreshing your dots too late. There's an optimal pandemic window where you can refresh them, which gives you more time than just waiting till right before they expire.
You mean too early? Does the same amount of damage as long as you refresh them in the pandemic window unless its a stealthed rake which you're supposed to let tick down till the end.
10/23/2018 01:41 PMPosted by Grìz
10/23/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Pidooma
Also make sure you aren't refreshing your dots too late. There's an optimal pandemic window where you can refresh them, which gives you more time than just waiting till right before they expire.
You mean too early? Does the same amount of damage as long as you refresh them in the pandemic window unless its a stealthed rake which you're supposed to let tick down till the end.


Also too late. It's not the issue of losing damage that is causing his issue of them all falling off it's probably waiting too long to refresh them and needing them all refreshed at the same time. Like waiting till 2s before refreshing. You just wont have enough energy to refresh them all quick enough.

But that is still a good point that should be mentioned!

Also you can refresh a stealthed rake in pandemic as well. It doesnt drop damage since the remaining damage is still added to the new rake. It just wont all have the increased damage modifier
It does drop damage, its only the duration that is added when you refresh. Where did you even get that information that the damage was added? Pandemic window is just the duration it does not take into account the snapshot of the bleed. Ask anyone in the feral discord they will tell you the same thing.
10/23/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Pidooma
Most people fail at the rotation due to over spamming shred and shred does laughably low damage. All your damage is going to come from bleeds and FB. Also make sure you aren't refreshing your dots too late. There's an optimal pandemic window where you can refresh them, which gives you more time than just waiting till right before they expire.

As long as your dots aren't falling off and you dont cap on energy you can sit there and pool energy and it wont be a dps loss. You'll find if you're doing the rotation correctly you spend a decent amount of time just auto attacking as you pool energy and plan your next moves.

I normally look at it like, okay will rip expire before rake, thrash and moonfire? If yes then I better spam to 4-5 combo points and sit to pool energy (you have to do this anyway to make sure you always FB with 50 or more energy). If one of the other dots is going to fall off and rip still has plenty of time I'll pool energy while preparing to refresh them as they come in only shredding to stop myself from capping energy. Energy classes are kind of odd like that. Feral more so than the rest tbf.


I figured the shred was killing me and I should've been playing it more pooling wise, I was choking myself jesus. I will try to make it more smoother and slow it down and let you guys know the result. I've always been taught to never refresh too early and never too late, kinda screwed me over finding that middle ground of 3 dots that expires that different times, sigh. I always did feel like shred did laughable damage, but thought it was my filler :/ thanks for teaching me. Also, should I be wasting my blood talons on 5cp FB and trash( I know for sure rake)?

Edit: I thought that pooling too much and not using shred enough was the dps loss, glad that confusion was cleared up.
10/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Grìz
It does drop damage, its only the duration that is added when you refresh. Where did you even get that information that the damage was added? Pandemic window is just the duration it does not take into account the snapshot of the bleed. Ask anyone in the feral discord they will tell you the same thing.


Well look at me being guilty of the exact thing I was talking about. I have no problem admitting I was wrong! This is why it's always good to get a 2nd opinion and/or peer reviewed lol. I knew pandemic was only duration but it didn't quite hit me that snapshotting with our other bleeds only works because they are resnapshotted.
10/23/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Pidooma
10/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Grìz
It does drop damage, its only the duration that is added when you refresh. Where did you even get that information that the damage was added? Pandemic window is just the duration it does not take into account the snapshot of the bleed. Ask anyone in the feral discord they will tell you the same thing.


Well look at me being guilty of the exact thing I was talking about. I have no problem admitting I was wrong! This is why it's always good to get a 2nd opinion and/or peer reviewed lol. I knew pandemic was only duration but it didn't quite hit me that snapshotting with our other bleeds only works because they are resnapshotted.


Lol i dont even know what you guys are talking about pandemic windows, gonna look it up.
Pandemic window is the ability to refresh a dot/hot/buffs once it has reached 30% duration remaining without losing any effectiveness. Meaning all the remaining 30% is added to the new one.
10/23/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Pidooma
Pandemic window is the ability to refresh a dot/hot/buffs once it has reached 30% duration remaining without losing any effectiveness. Meaning all the remaining 30% is added to the new one.


Thanks boss. I was practicing on the training dummy in the druid hall for about 10 minutes straight, I maintained 6300-6500 DPS(Berserking Troll Haste Racial) class seemed more fluid and waiting for that 50 energy before I used FB is a big help instead of spamming it as soon as it was ready at 5cp. I didnt feel so energy starved and pooled a lot keeping the dots up easier. I thought that by not being aggressive with shred and faster on abilities that I'd lose dmg/dps, but like you implied all the bleeds rolling makes up for the pooling and auto attacking. Thank you very much.
10/23/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Fixedwing
10/23/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Pidooma
Pandemic window is the ability to refresh a dot/hot/buffs once it has reached 30% duration remaining without losing any effectiveness. Meaning all the remaining 30% is added to the new one.


Thanks boss. I was practicing on the training dummy in the druid hall for about 10 minutes straight, I maintained 6300-6500 DPS(Berserking Troll Haste Racial) class seemed more fluid and waiting for that 50 energy before I used FB is a big help instead of spamming it as soon as it was ready at 5cp. I didnt feel so energy starved and pooled a lot keeping the dots up easier. I thought that by not being aggressive with shred and faster on abilities that I'd lose dmg/dps, but like you implied all the bleeds rolling makes up for the pooling and auto attacking. Thank you very much.


That's a real good start!
Here is your single target sim with no additional buffs.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/29LWCe57Fw3rTHarkpx6yV

Keep working on your timings. I suggest getting an addon to help you keep track of the proper times, if you aren't already using one. Keep in mind while looking at the sim data that it's pretty hard to hit exactly what your sim says. As long as you can get around that on a target dummy you will be doing solid. Also keep in mind this is to be considered as your maximum dps output with no buffs on a single target with no movement mechanics. So on an actual raid or dungeon boss it'll be lower, though you normally have some type of buffs to make up for it, such as lust.
10/23/2018 04:39 PMPosted by Pidooma
10/23/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Fixedwing
...

Thanks boss. I was practicing on the training dummy in the druid hall for about 10 minutes straight, I maintained 6300-6500 DPS(Berserking Troll Haste Racial) class seemed more fluid and waiting for that 50 energy before I used FB is a big help instead of spamming it as soon as it was ready at 5cp. I didnt feel so energy starved and pooled a lot keeping the dots up easier. I thought that by not being aggressive with shred and faster on abilities that I'd lose dmg/dps, but like you implied all the bleeds rolling makes up for the pooling and auto attacking. Thank you very much.


That's a real good start!
Here is your single target sim with no additional buffs.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/29LWCe57Fw3rTHarkpx6yV

Keep working on your timings. I suggest getting an addon to help you keep track of the proper times, if you aren't already using one. Keep in mind while looking at the sim data that it's pretty hard to hit exactly what your sim says. As long as you can get around that on a target dummy you will be doing solid. Also keep in mind this is to be considered as your maximum dps output with no buffs on a single target with no movement mechanics. So on an actual raid or dungeon boss it'll be lower, though you normally have some type of buffs to make up for it, such as lust.


Thanks, I forgot i couldn't start with tigers furry probably in that first one, its more like 6800-7000. I'll keep practicing, take care and if i got any more questions I'll ask ^_^
speaking of all this pandemic refreshing business, if you apply a rip with bloodtalons+tigersfury+savageroar and then refresh it with ferocious bite at 25%, does it lose all those buffs and default back to a regular rip or does it keep every modifier?
It keeps every modifier, but savage roar does not snapshot

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