Importance of Undercity's Destruction

Story Forum
Something I believe may be worth discussing is the narrative importance of the destruction to undercity and tirisfal glades. From what we have so far, and as of the current ptr of 8.1, there really isn't any.

The burning of Teldrassil, and the loss of the night elves homelands, has been used currently as the primary motivation for the alliance in this war, and will most likely be remembered strongly, for better or worse. I. Don't believe this can be said for Undercity.

I don't mean to be excessively whining, nor do I intend any of this as a jab at night elf players and fans. But comparatively, I believe it is better that the destruction of the night elves land at least resulted in alliance motivation, and a story of vengeance and retribution for the night elves. The forsaken got literally nothing out of their homelands demise.

The question I pose to you all is: do you believe the destruction of the undercity will have a significant narrative impact at some point? Is there anything you believe could be done in the future to possibly ameliorate this situation? What would you do with this plot line, pretty much.

Also, feel free to discuss any changes you think would've made its destruction better when it occurred.
10/28/2018 09:49 PMPosted by Verlius
do you believe the destruction of the undercity will have a significant narrative impact at some point?
No. Absolutely not.

In case you haven't noticed, Blizzard doesn't remember there were any Forsaken besides Blightcaller and Lillian Voss.

We already spent all of 8.0 raising a bunch of new undead Kul Tiran characters, and we're about to spend 8.1 raising a bunch of new undead Kaldorei characters. Belmont and Faranell, two characters near the top of the very short list of memorable Vanilla Forsaken, have a non-role in the new Warfront after briefly showing up to get dunked on in Alliance-only content.

The original Forsaken of Lordaeron may as well not exist. They're not interesting to the writers, and it's unlikely that we'll ever really hear from them again.
Part of the gravitas to Teldrassil’s destruction is the loss of life associated with it from both the inexperienced defenders of Night Elf territory and the civilian casualties along the way and especially at the tree itself.

Such was not the case with Lordaeron. Sylvanas sacrifices an evacuated city to attempt another coup de grace.
10/28/2018 09:57 PMPosted by Kazala
10/28/2018 09:49 PMPosted by Verlius
do you believe the destruction of the undercity will have a significant narrative impact at some point?
No. Absolutely not.

In case you haven't noticed, Blizzard doesn't remember there were any Forsaken besides Blightcaller and Lillian Voss.

We already spent all of 8.0 raising a bunch of new undead Kul Tiran characters, and we're about to spend 8.1 raising a bunch of new undead Kaldorei characters. Belmont and Faranell, two characters near the top of the very short list of memorable Vanilla Forsaken, have a non-role in the new Warfront after briefly showing up to get dunked on in Alliance-only content.

The original Forsaken of Lordaeron may as well not exist. They're not interesting to the writers, and it's unlikely that we'll ever really hear from them again.


I agree with you. This is why I have been getting frustrated when people say that the writing and this expansion is full of forsaken bias. They aren't using the forsaken as they were sold to players like myself, they are attempting to twist and mutate them into some weird scourge jr. And we all know it isn't going to end well.
I think the reason they are giving all the weight to the Nelves losing their home is because they ‘can grow another magic tree’ (to paraphrase Blizzard), but the Forsaken will probably go back to Undercity.

Besides, the Forsaken are immortal and patient. To them, they might view this as a temporary hiatus.
10/28/2018 10:08 PMPosted by Yersynia
I think the reason they are giving all the weight to the Nelves losing their home is because they ‘can grow another magic tree’ (to paraphrase Blizzard), but the Forsaken will probably go back to Undercity.

Besides, the Forsaken are immortal and patient. To them, they might view this as a temporary hiatus.


That's fair, and honestly I kinda hope we can just go back after all this, lol.

And you may be right about the forsaken not vie get it as seriously as the night elves, but I don't think it has even been presented, other than that one forsaken on the ptr missing his garden. We pretty much know nothing about how the forsaken are dealing with this.
10/28/2018 10:08 PMPosted by Yersynia
the Forsaken will probably go back to Undercity.


Isn't Blizzard's overall goal to split the factions between continents?

Honestly, I think I'd be more annoyed over the faction lines conveniently reverting right back where they were than any loss of city or territory. That's just the ultimate "none of this matters" exclamation.
Undercity is still accessible in game so I do think they have plans for the future but I won't even begin to theorize what those plans are.
I think part of what some people misunderstand is that the loss of Teldrassil itself is not the big problem; it's the thousands of people that died in a mass genocide that causes such a staunch desire for vengeance. Undercity had such low civilian casualties, if any, in comparison.

The loss of Undercity is a blow, but the pathos that Teldrassil had isn't there.
It would've been better if it wasn't for the fact that Undercity as-is remains untouched and the game emphasized how nobody really died.

If the city had caved in due to the explosions, that would've been much better since the Forsaken notion of returning home wouldn't be a thing but at present, it's filled with blight and looks better than Southshore does.
I can't imagine the Forsaken civilians, your average Joes and whatnots, aren't feeling some kind of a sting from losing Undercity. Hearing that their leader had decided to Blight the place up so they had to drop everything and scram before they died to Blight or the Alliance couldn't have been a great experience. And being homeless in Orgrimmar or wherever they might migrate to also has to be an alienating experience.

I sympathize with the Forsaken civilians, honestly. But if we're playing the comparison game, then yeeeahh...no, what happened at Teldrassil was worse. Because as has already been stated, there were few if any civilian losses at Undercity, versus the ludicrously massive loss of life at Teldrassil. In that sense, the two don't begin to compare.

Undercity doesn't appear damaged, really, from what I could see. Brill is lost but can be rebuilt, but the major city itself will likely be fine if the Blight's able to be cleared out of it.

The night elves are trickier to handle in this regard. Sure, they could "just grow another magical tree", but given the track record of how poorly that tends to go, I don't think it's a good idea. Teldrassil was corrupted to hell until Cataclysm.

Not that that might stop them, obviously. But I'm with Marford; I'd be more disappointed if we just got Undercity and Teldrassil back and ultimately none of this mattered. I'd rather a that split of the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor that Blizzard hinted at, because no matter how traumatic and messy at least it's progress and at least the story mattered.
For the record, I am not saying that what happened with the two events is equal. That's pretty much my point. I know what happened in Teldrassil was worse.

There is no weight to what happened to the undercity. its destruction has almost no narrative significance whatsoever. That is what frustrates me. I do not intend to be saying one side got it better or worse.

For whatever reason. It was decided that the destruction of Teldrassil would be a horrific series of war crimes. It was also decided that the destruction of the undercity should have little to no substance behind it.

The desire for vengeance was created by how the destruction was done, yes. That is part of what I mean.

In my opinion, it would have been better if both cities were destroyed by a "morally grey" act by the opposing faction. That way both sides can have motivation and a desire for vengeance.

I may not be properly explaining what I mean, so I apologize.
10/28/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Verlius
For the record, I am not saying that what happened with the two events is equal. That's pretty much my point. I know what happened in Teldrassil was worse.

There is no weight to what happened to the undercity. its destruction has almost no narrative significance whatsoever. That is what frustrates me. I do not intend to be saying one side got it better or worse.

For whatever reason. It was decided that the destruction of Teldrassil would be a horrific series of war crimes. It was also decided that the destruction of the undercity should have little to no substance behind it.

The desire for vengeance was created by how the destruction was done, yes. That is part of what I mean.

In my opinion, it would have been better if both cities were destroyed by a "morally grey" act by the opposing faction. That way both sides can have motivation and a desire for vengeance.

I may not be properly explaining what I mean, so I apologize.


Gonna level with you chief, I was also really, seriously, praying that Undercity would be destroyed by Alliance hands. A part of me (the die-hard blue-and-gold-blooded Alliance fangirl part) wanted it to be some sort of at least vaguely gratifying act of revenge for Teldrassil. Another part of me just...accepted that it would have been more interesting and given at least the barest credence to that whole "morally grey" meme.

But no, instead Sylvanas is the one to blow it up in a (barely) failed attempt to kill off a big chunk of Alliance leadership, with all or at least most of the civilians already safe. It's...tremendously underwhelming, in a disappointing way, for both sides of this conflict I think.

I'm disappointed as a Horde player because there just isn't any real "oomph" to losing Undercity, and I'm disappointed as an Alliance player for not getting any juicy vengeance to bite into.
10/28/2018 10:39 PMPosted by Grandblade
The loss of Undercity is a blow, but the pathos that Teldrassil had isn't there.
Isn't that the entire point of the thread? That the loss of Undercity was written to not matter, despite the fact that it does matter a great deal to Forsaken fans and should matter to the Forsaken race?

Teldrassil was the home of the Night Elves for about ten years out of their ten thousand year lifespans. The Forsaken lived in Lordaeron their entire lives, died defending it, and then fought to reclaim it in undeath.

No one is denying that the Kaldorei suffered more than the Forsaken in the BfA opening, but the story isn't treating it as a difference in degrees of loss. It's treating it as if the loss of Teldrassil is catastrophic and a major plot mover going forward, while the Forsaken being driven from Lordaeron is simply never mentioned again after it happens.
In that situation, then, Verlius, the order of events becomes even more important.

Undercity would have to have been the opening act of the war. More civilian casualties, a panicked populace attempting a hectic escape, and the Alliance holding the city and its inhabitants as Sylvanas initially had planned for Teldrassil. Maybe Anduin attempts to reassure the captives and treats them humanely.

Sylvanas burns the tree in retaliation and that plays out mostly the same except a direct assault would have been costlier and may have required alternate tactics for the same end result. Whatever Blizzard wants to pull out of their idea hat.

Then we’d see more moral grayness.

As things are, it feels like the Forsaken story is too centered on Sylvanas and the war effort without any quests to gain the average undead joes take. But this is just me rehashing your sentiments.
The Battle for Lordaeron, story wise is probably the most anticlimatic event not only from BfA but for all of Warcraft.

Seriously, whoever wrote the event is the most incompetent person to ever exist.

Edit: Cuz english isn't my native language and Kazala is making me blush. Hard.
whoever writted the event
What happened here?!
10/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Kazala
whoever writted the event
What happened here?!
GET WRITTED ON.
10/28/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Marford
Isn't Blizzard's overall goal to split the factions between continents?

It's the in-game characters' goal (well, Sylvanas's goal, anyway). But I'm not convinced that Blizzard is really planning to make it happen.
It's hard to market sympathy for a group of zombies that a good number of the playerbase think shouldn't even be playable or should be kicked out of the Horde.

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