Cat DPS Guide - 4.3

Druid
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In before 200 pages.

Also because you requested suggestions Tanj...I give you wall of text. <3


Wow... quite a wall of text!
I haven't had the time to have a pass through Section 9 yet and they've been mostly untouched when moved from Yawning's guide. I think your points 1-3 points to Section 9, and should be covered once I have the chance to work on that section.

I will probably add a macro section since there's been quite a lot of request for that, and I will also update the mods section.

PS: Your website is broke'd.
Still works: http://tangedyn.pbworks.com/w/page/19362771/FrontPage
Doesn't work: http://tangedyn.9tribes.net/


Wow, where did you find these links? I've kind of abandoned these site. 9tribes seem to be down, and pbworks site pretty much only archives my old vanilla theorycrafts.

I now blog and put my theorycraft up on http://theincbear.com

PPS: Any possibility of getting DPE values for abilities. Like say glyphed versus unglyphed Ferocious Bite? Or opening with pounce on PvE bosses versus feral charging unstealthed and opening with mangle? The ability map and the guide don't cover openers except to say that pounce stun doesn't work on a lot of mobs (knapkin math places mangle at 232 DPE and Pounce 258 DPE as an opener for my druid).


I do have to strike a balance between providing detailed theorycraft, and making this guide concise and friendly towards newcomers. IMO, DPE values would be out of the scope of this guide. Not to worry though, the guide contains links to various theorycrafting tools that will help you find DPE values

PPPS: Any chance I might trade druid waffles for an update to "Tossks DPS Gear Methodology" page? They might be a little stale though, they've been sitting in my pocket since innervate became trainable. Rawr just doesn't seem to come up with proper stat values sometimes.


Have you tried Mew?
Also, the DPE changes based off the value of your stats. If you're really high in mastery, rip/rake would be higher dpe than if you're really low in mastery.
I don't know if anyone's suggested it yet, but you can instructions on how to quickly navigate the guide (such as if you forget what enchant to use on bracers or something) via ctrl+F (cmd on Macs or something).
As everyone before me said, thanks for taking over the guide. What happened with Yawning's ban is really a shame... i'm truly sad and i still don't quite understand the reasons, but well... the show must go on.

On another note, i'm using the following macros for feral charging and applying FFF at the same time:

Bear form:
#showtooltip
/cast Feral Charge
/cast Faerie Fire (Feral)


Cat form:
#showtooltip
/cast Feral Charge(Cat Form)
/cast Faerie Fire (Feral)


Its not a must have macro by any means, but its useful in most situations (even though there aren't many fights in Cata raids where you actually need to feral charge anything while tanking, but its useful while doing your random heroic, as well as all the time for the cat macro).

Thanks again for taking over, and i'd like the opportunity to give a big shout-out to Toskk, Demoneater and Yawning, as well as Tangedyn of course. Their involvement has certainly made the druid forums one the of the prime places for theorycrafting, as well as continuously helping to improve ourselves.
So two things before I start off:

1) Thank you very much for putting this up there, I am aware of how much work one of these takes as in previous MMO's I have written guides for classes/bosses.

2) I am not a heavy theorycrafter nor do I crunch numbers heavily. I say what I am about to from experience in the current raid content and the current feral changes.

Now my gear is not the best however it is not to shabby either. While Rawr states I should be doing about 21k in 25m buffs I can attest that I can pull ~19-20k on fights with my current gear and setup.

With that being said, your information despite rawr or the resources you are using, about hit and expertise not being important is completely inaccurate. Both are very good secondary stats as of now, especially with damage being moved to shred from bleeds. I have tested in raids the varying stat reforging/gemming and enchanting of:

1) Heavy haste, reforging all stats to haste with the exception of mastery
2) Purely Crit/mastery/hit
3) Mastery/hit/exp(my current setup) with emphisis on reforging all crit and haste to said stats.
4) pure crit/mastery, In that if it did not have either of these stats I would reforge to mastery first then crit if mastery was already present.

My highest dps output by a long shot has been #3 by far since 4.0.6 followed by #1.

Crit while It does allow better usage of our EPA(energy per action) due to the primal fury talent, the high amount of movement and target switches needed in this tier of Cata makes missing any attacks a larger dps loss then hoping essentially for a crit.

Therefor I believe hit/exp rank above all secondary stats with the exception of mastery.


I think the reason you are seeing increases in the hit/exp build is due to the fact that your rotation is smoothing out. Regardless of you you feel though mast/crit/haste will give you more dps per point that mast/hit/exp if you can handle the rotations.
Thanks for taking up the last stand, Tangedyn.. With blizzard trying their best to annihilate not only our strength via ridiculous uncalled nerfs, but also our heart and morale by kicking out the most contributing and oldest members of the community, it is good to see us still fighting.

A few things to notice about the guide and TC tools..
* Mew does have issues with Java on some comps.. I have a wide variety of hardware and software that im working(and playing) on, on 2 win xp comps i just couldnt make it work.. Neither web nor the downloadable version.. The web version just freezes up, the downloadable version only shows empty window frame.

* Hit/exp value discussion. This is the most human-factor issue you could possibly find in our dps rotation.. Some times i really get frustrated or screwed up by a string of miss/dodges, especially during berserk, but i just cant make myself to sacrifice powerful secondary stats for those rare occasions of bad lack plus me slacking and not paying attention - as an exmaple, i didnt check that my last shred missed and put up a 4-combos rip, and only after hitting the rip key on auto-pilot realising that it was 4cp Rip, such a facepalm moment it is, but as you can see i could have totally avoided that.. Like i say to other people.. If you can manage your rotation and extra attention that you have to pay for missed CP generation abilities, then you dont need any hit/exp at all. Take it for granted when it comes along with gear and reforge to crit.

Also a small extra penatly for miss/hit that you can't overcome yourself.. If your rip/rake misses during TF and it fades before you can hit it again.. A rare occasion but it does happen.. ("ty" blizz for this clunky mechanic of tf-juggling btw, guess that's one of the "life quality issues")
In before 200 pages.

Also because you requested suggestions Tanj...I give you wall of text. <3


Wow... quite a wall of text!
I haven't had the time to have a pass through Section 9 yet and they've been mostly untouched when moved from Yawning's guide. I think your points 1-3 points to Section 9, and should be covered once I have the chance to work on that section.

I will probably add a macro section since there's been quite a lot of request for that, and I will also update the mods section.

Happy Fun Rock


PS: Your website is broke'd.
Still works: http://tangedyn.pbworks.com/w/page/19362771/FrontPage
Doesn't work: http://tangedyn.9tribes.net/


Wow, where did you find these links? I've kind of abandoned these site. 9tribes seem to be down, and pbworks site pretty much only archives my old vanilla theorycrafts.

I now blog and put my theorycraft up on http://theincbear.com


Bookmarks. Druid ones. Like the one http://theincbear.com has. ;)

Also some oldies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBKqNt5ysq4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqQYq3obHZA

I used to have a lot of druid ones but they're all broken.


PPS: Any possibility of getting DPE values for abilities. Like say glyphed versus unglyphed Ferocious Bite? Or opening with pounce on PvE bosses versus feral charging unstealthed and opening with mangle? The ability map and the guide don't cover openers except to say that pounce stun doesn't work on a lot of mobs (knapkin math places mangle at 232 DPE and Pounce 258 DPE as an opener for my druid).


I do have to strike a balance between providing detailed theorycraft, and making this guide concise and friendly towards newcomers. IMO, DPE values would be out of the scope of this guide. Not to worry though, the guide contains links to various theorycrafting tools that will help you find DPE values

The DPE values within Mew (what I've been using since it release as Rawr makes baby jesus cry) are limited to the average damaging attack so it's hard to see the effect of say, berserk, on FB's DPE or is it better to refresh Rake before berserk ends than get in another shred? Mew helps on the Rake/Shred issue but doesn't cover unglyphed FB without some additional math; if the average extra energy consumed per FB is 20 based on my average AP across the fight I can determine FB's average hit/crit and then determine the DPE for halfcost+remaining energy. Maybe I'm looking too much into it.


PPPS: Any chance I might trade druid waffles for an update to "Tossks DPS Gear Methodology" page? They might be a little stale though, they've been sitting in my pocket since innervate became trainable. Rawr just doesn't seem to come up with proper stat values sometimes.


Have you tried Mew?


Using offline build - 20110202-406PTR at the moment. Something I enjoyed about Tossks and Rawr is that they created a table of gear along with the next best upgrades for your current stats. Just speeds up the process of finding what the next upgrade is. Do I go with Wind Stalker Belt of the WindstormWind Stalker Belt or Dispersing Belt?

Tried to copy mew relative stat values but it won't let me copy and paste. In essence(margin of error 0.185):

Str: 2.08
Agi: 2.72
AP: 0.99
Haste: 1.41
Crit: 0.85
Mastery: 1.04
Hit: 0.73
XP: 0.73
Weap: 4.13

Based on this Wind Stalker Belt of the Zephyr is best but since it's not a guaranteed drop we need to figure out which of the two belts I listed is better. Which states Dispersing belt is marginally better (lolwut no mastery?)


Edit: Switched out heroic blue for epic PvP weapon, which resulted in:
Str: 2.05
Agi: 2.7
AP: 0.98
Haste: 0.94
Crit: 0.85
Mastery: 1.05
Hit: 0.92
XP: 0.92
Weap: 4.08

With the same margin of error.

Which changes everything again.
Thanks to Tangedyn for maintaining this and to the previous contributors, the druid community will surely miss you.
02/17/2011 1:19 PMPosted by Vouivre
I don't know if anyone's suggested it yet, but you can instructions on how to quickly navigate the guide (such as if you forget what enchant to use on bracers or something) via ctrl+F (cmd on Macs or something).


Will add that soon, thanks for the suggestion.


* Mew does have issues with Java on some comps.. I have a wide variety of hardware and software that im working(and playing) on, on 2 win xp comps i just couldnt make it work.. Neither web nor the downloadable version.. The web version just freezes up, the downloadable version only shows empty window frame.


We've noticed that Apache Pivot has issues with certain JRE versions on certain OS. Updating your JREs may help, but meanwhile we are switching to Swing with Ceridan's help, which should hopefully be more stable.

Using offline build - 20110202-406PTR at the moment. Something I enjoyed about Tossks and Rawr is that they created a table of gear along with the next best upgrades for your current stats. Just speeds up the process of finding what the next upgrade is. Do I go with Wind Stalker Belt of the WindstormWind Stalker Belt or Dispersing Belt?

Tried to copy mew relative stat values but it won't let me copy and paste. In essence(margin of error 0.185):

Str: 2.08
Agi: 2.72
AP: 0.99
Haste: 1.41
Crit: 0.85
Mastery: 1.04
Hit: 0.73
XP: 0.73
Weap: 4.13


There's a newer version you should upgrade to, your EP for haste looks suspect, not sure if it's a bug with an older version, or possibly your haste/crit values entered are very low such that you are having difficulty sustaining SR + Rip uptime.
Great guide Tang. Thanks for taking over. I am at work so I don't have time to read everything but a skim looks good. Also is MEW going to live on?
Yes Mew will continue to be maintained.
02/18/2011 12:05 PMPosted by Tangedyn
There's a newer version you should upgrade to, your EP for haste looks suspect, not sure if it's a bug with an older version, or possibly your haste/crit values entered are very low such that you are having difficulty sustaining SR + Rip uptime.


I would guess they didn't fill out the talents/glyphs/etc. I don't think haste would be that much better than mastery at any level of gear currently available.
There's a newer version you should upgrade to, your EP for haste looks suspect, not sure if it's a bug with an older version, or possibly your haste/crit values entered are very low such that you are having difficulty sustaining SR + Rip uptime.


I would guess they didn't fill out the talents/glyphs/etc. I don't think haste would be that much better than mastery at any level of gear currently available.


Neither did I, but everything was filled out correctly using Buffs/Debuffs set for raiding at 4k iterations. Parameters set to 400s, 23% BitW time with 0 interupts. The stats varied and I'll have to go back to my character sheet with a blue weapon loaded but my Agi hovers at 4300 unbuffed, hit at ~350, haste ~600, mastery at ~2050, AP ~830, crit ~1800. I use fluid death and unheeded warning.

By switching out my weapon they became slightly more normalized.

Deviation(0.131)
Str=2.0643
Agi=2.6806
Ap=0.98055
Crit=0.84452
Haste=0.82232
Mastery=1.04312
Hit=0.717
XP=0.71571
Weap=4.09131

Which are the values after re-measuring. Both times the uptime of Rip/Rake were over 99% so I'm not sure why. I'll see if I can duplicate it on the new Mew and upload my .mew file somewhere.
Is there a definitive answer on haste vs crit? Agi/Mastery rule as far as primary and secondary, that's fairly simple. Is there a certain cap for crit or haste, should they always remain similar in value, etc? I understand that there isn't a "stat weight" on them so to speak, that it's gear dependent. what I'm asking is the factors into account that make it gear dependent.
Not really, it's all very volatile. The certain thing is that when we are undergeared, haste is the most important secondary stat because we need to have enough energy to sustain near 100% uptime on Savage Roar and Rip. Once we have enough (should have enough long before half-Heroics gear), then haste drops to below Mastery in value.

Mastery increases the damage of Rake and Rip.
Haste allows us to get in more energy dump Shreds, as well as increase autoattack damage
Crits increase all of our damage

Because Haste and Crit also depend a lot on the other value, there's really no way to tell how exactly to balance them for max effect except to SIm it - and even then the variance is too high to be sufficiently confident.

My best advice is try not to worry about it, treat both as the same until further notice, because it's likely that Crit will lose value in later tiers when we start approaching the Crit cap. That's when we start looking at Hit and Expertise again.
The above stat weightings are showing hit/exp above crit/haste. Is that 'right'?
02/21/2011 11:02 AMPosted by Thwacker
The above stat weightings are showing hit/exp above crit/haste. Is that 'right'?

It's possible once you hit the soft-cap for crit. In my case it's likely because the number of iterations was too low with the fight duration being too high, causing the potential deviation to unbalance certain stats.

I've edited the original post with more accurate values I haven't been able to stop and mess with Mew for a while because of school. The updated values should be more accurate @10k iterations of a 4m fight with 23% BotW time.
It's possible once you hit the soft-cap for crit. In my case it's likely because the number of iterations was too low with the fight duration being too high, causing the potential deviation to unbalance certain stats.

I've edited the original post with more accurate values I haven't been able to stop and mess with Mew for a while because of school. The updated values should be more accurate @10k iterations of a 4m fight with 23% BotW time.


We're nowhere near the soft-cap for crit yet. Which version of Mew are you using?

Using offline build - 20110202-406PTR at the moment.



We're nowhere near the soft-cap for crit yet. Which version of Mew are you using?



The updated values are using Mew-20110215.

Here's the original Mew file I was using to get the 1.4 haste value (which seemed a little weird). The only assumption I can make was that it was using the older version of the Unheeded Warning Trinket giving haste a higher value than normal.

http://rapidshare.com/files/449262504/Grell.mew
I've added a short section to the start of the guide, highlighting changes in our priorities caused by 4.0.6 changes. I don't think everyone has adapted to the changes yet.

Summary of Important changes for 4.0.6
Detailed version here: http://theincbear.com/adapting-your-cat-for-4-0-6/
1. Ferocious Bite is no longer used at > 25% boss health. Instead, use Shred if you have excess energy to burn.
2. Glyph of Berserk is now our 3rd best Prime Glyph
3. Haste Rating is now as good as Critical Strike Rating
4. Unheeded Warning is now our best Trinket

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