Heroic Halls of Origination

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To the OP: if in doubt, ask at the beginning of a run. As a tank that has little to gain from heroics, I sometimes do optional bosses if asked, but I rarely do all of them. I will however ask in group if 3-4 bosses is OK, if not, then I'll kill the first boss, then drop.

To Blizz: there's a fine balance in length of an instance that your designers still haven't quite figured out. Deadmines is still too long, HoO would be far too long if optional bosses were required, Grim Batol is on the edge of too long and could have a few more groups deleted. SFK is too long, but can be powered through. Think of it this way, as a tank I'm looking at 30-45 min per run, as a dps I'm looking at 40 min queue plus run time. Hard to play more than a toon or two if instances take longer, and that's not including the failed pugs with additional time wasted.
I have a hard time believing it took Halls of Origination to learn this lesson about LFG, player community, and social tension. The very first time I ran this dungeon, I immediately said that no one would ever complete it for their dungeon daily, just "skip" to Rajh. Maybe if all of those bosses had absolutely zero trash, but still--the dungeon is a very long run, and you heaped three optional bosses next to each other. The result shouldn't be a surprise.

If the only lesson you learn from HoO is that optional bosses are awkward in LFD, then you're missing a bigger picture. WotLK had 10 minute LFD runs, and Cata intro'ed with 2+ hour runs (45 minute dps queue followed by easily an hour for a good run). Considering that LFD dailies remain relevant for most players for the entire expansion, there has to be a healthier middle ground.

I remember reading developer commentary once about how Scarlet Monestary's winged structure was good and they'd like to repeat it. Well, Deadmines and HoO should each be about half the length that they are. 7 bosses is a huge time investment.
The solution is simple, really.

Just put a check box when you queue for dungeons. Make it say "Complete Clear".

If you check it, you will only get grouped with other people who checked it (and the bosses will be required for the random reward).

Perk: by checking that box, you get 25% (TBD) more rewards for completing the dungeon (emblems/gold/xp).

So people who queue specific will be assured a safe group, and people who queue random can get bonuses.
03/15/2011 8:34 PMPosted by Junon
I know that sounds cynical but it is the truth, I think efforts would be better spent in addressing a real issue then this same crap every week.


What, like "OMG MY CLASS IS BROKEN, FIX HEROIC LEAP NAO" instead?

Look, if someone is displeased with an aspect of the game, they have every right to complain as you do. Don't act so entitled, as if you have laid claim to all rights of QQ.
The solution is simple, really.

Just put a check box when you queue for dungeons. Make it say "Complete Clear".

If you check it, you will only get grouped with other people who checked it (and the bosses will be required for the random reward).

Perk: by checking that box, you get 25% (TBD) more rewards for completing the dungeon (emblems/gold/xp).

So people who queue specific will be assured a safe group, and people who queue random can get bonuses.


Oh wow, this for sure! Good idea and /signed
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


Speaking from the point of view of someone who does NOT want to go back to having to kill optional bosses in a place that is as mindnumbingly long such as Halls of Origination or even incredibly short yet the boss is a PITA like Throne of Tides, I would have to say that changing the requirements for a LFD group to clear the entire instance is a step in the wrong direction.

However, what you did with The Occulus is a decent choice here. By creating vanity item rewards that are interesting and give things like Achievements and Feats of Strength you would encourage even the most reluctant to clear these bosses. The two bosses that have a chance to drop mounts in current Cata instances are bosses that are required to progress in the instance. I am not saying this is the wrong way to itemize. What I am saying however, is that there needs to be incentive for alternate bosses.

This problem goes back to Wrath. With Old Kingdom and Gundrak. Both instance had bosses that people would rather skip because they offered nothing but a resource that was oversaturated (Badges/Justice Points).

I have seen a many suggestions to increase the Justice Point rewards from these bosses as an incentive. This would only be an incentive during the initial phases of a raid tier. This would not serve to make the random tank or healer choose to spend another 15 or 20 minutes in an instance. As a tank, the only things that would persuade me to do an additional boss would be a 1) Mount, 2) Vanity Transformation Item 3) Recipe Drop or 4) Valor Points in addition to the 70 for the instance.

Which comes to my suggestion. Change the Random Dungeon quest reward to 40 Valor Points + 30 for each boss killed in the instance when the "final" boss is completed. Lockouts are based on boss kills now. So the game can track which are alive and which are dead. Would it not be easy to have the game check the lockout status of the player when the quest completed? Halls of Origination has 7 bosses, but typically you only do Bosses 1, 3, and 7. If you did all 7 bosses that would be your 70 Valor + another 40. Making clearing the entire instance efficient for ALL players involved. Alternatively, you could give 100 Valor and subtract 10 for each boss not completed. The problem here lies in the fact that still you'd have 1 dungeon that would reward more than the others, giving rise to people dropping group until they got something like Halls, but I think that could be mitigated somehow.

Arguably, the core problem here is that the majority of the people running the dungeon at this stage of the game are people who no longer need the gear it drops. If heroics were only run by people who needed 346/justice gear (ie you didn't get valor points for them,) then boss skipping wouldn't be as attractive to the people who did run them.

In HoO in particular the problem is also that the difference between a bare minimum clear and a full clear is four bosses- four bosses with very little trash, but still, four bosses.
Halls, deadmines, sfk could each easily be split into two dungeons. Then you could make them required bosses, or people wouldn't mind doing the bosses because the clear would still be pretty fast.
There is also the option of having , as per Halls of Origination example (having 4 bosses in a small vicinity), having the option of more than 1 boss counting as completing the instance.

That way, according to group composition/gear/skill levels, people aren't forced to "follow the linear path" for the completion bonus and can choose the final boss that they want to kill to finish the dungeon.

S

03/15/2011 8:40 PMPosted by Niwaar
Which comes to my suggestion. Change the Random Dungeon quest reward to 40 Valor Points + 30 for each boss killed in the instance when the "final" boss is completed. Lockouts are based on boss kills now. So the game can track which are alive and which are dead. Would it not be easy to have the game check the lockout status of the player when the quest completed? Halls of Origination has 7 bosses, but typically you only do Bosses 1, 3, and 7. If you did all 7 bosses that would be your 70 Valor + another 40. Making clearing the entire instance efficient for ALL players involved. Alternatively, you could give 100 Valor and subtract 10 for each boss not completed. The problem here lies in the fact that still you'd have 1 dungeon that would reward more than the others, giving rise to people dropping group until they got something like Halls, but I think that could be mitigated somehow.


Easily. Just cap it off at something like 100. That way, people can do extra bosses until they kill enough to get the cap. That way, someone in need can say "can we kill these 2 bosses for our extra bosses please?"
While I doubt this would be allowed, it seems to me like a decent way to get more people to consider doing the extra bosses in Halls of Origination would be to simply take out the PITA trash before the extra bosses out. It does not take "just an extra 5 minutes" to down the other three constructs. It takes closer to 15, depending on the gear level of your group, because of the pointless trash pulls.
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


May I suggest adding a buff? It could be anything from a static Damage/Health per boss left up to Rahj gaining abilities from each of the bosses left unkilled. This would ensure that groups who want to skip to the last boss meet the increased gear requirement. If someone in the group needs the gear off the other bosses they'd be more likely to see them killed and the already geared enough groups would only have a small inconvenience in that the boss takes a little longer.
You make all the bosses mandatory, HoO will become the new Occulus.

Then you're offering a mount (that's not unique) and a goodie bag to get people to stay, or your nerfing it to make it a quick n dirty...

I just don't understand why Blizz constantly lets history repeat itself with instances.

I'm not meaning it to be snarky, but, you didn't see this coming?
Three optional bosses is a little high.

Should have split it into two instances instead. Halls of Origination and Tomb of the Wanna be Gods.
maybe just make it so it pics a random boss of the 4?
I always ask.

I generally skip the camel boss, I did it for the ach and the group didn't mind except the healer who promptly left even though I said I'd skip the others.

If people state they need loot from a certain boss I'll go do that specific boss and skip the rest of them. Most seem to happy with this.

HoO, Deadmines and SFK are easy but too long.
I like having the option to skip bosses in Halls. It may be a great dungeon but sometimes, people just want to skip and go to the end to get it over with.

You can always ask your group if you guys can do the other bosses as well. It won't hurt to try and ask. :]

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