Heroic Halls of Origination

General Discussion
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Cata dungeons are completely inconsistent right now and that's bad design. The developers appear to have given no thought to gating mechanics.

Throne of Tides is essentially a 2 boss heroic. You can kill 1st boss, walk past 2nd boss, and go right to the end boss. Total time? About 8-10minutes for 70 valor.

Halls of Origination is a 3/7 boss heroic. You kill 1st boss, walk left to do the gaunlet, then up and kill end boss. Again, maybe a 10-12 minute run for 70 valor.

Then you have Deadmines...which is a 7 or 8 boss heroic depending on how you count. That's insane. The best PUG I've been in still took about 45 minutes to complete it. That's a damn raid by comparison to the other two. For just 70 valor, that's not worth it.

There are plenty of bosses that appear to have been designed to be skippable, like Beauty, who I suspect was skippable because of the problem of maybe not having any beast CCs in your PUG, or Dragha, who I suspect is skippable because people just suck at the fight.

But there are also bosses that appear to be skippable, but aren't because of scripting, such as the forge boss in BRC you can walk past (but then Raz doesn't appear for the end boss).

Thankfully, the solutions are so obvious that it really makes me sad that not one of them has been implemented yet. This thread is full of them, but my suggestions are:

a) Valor drops from each heroic boss, maybe 10 valor. They added JP to make regular mode dungeons more compelling, the same reasoning applies to heroic. Suddenly Deadmines and Halls offer 140 valor for a full clear and with a good group, I'll do that no problem.

b) Define boss count for random rewards as either 3 bosses or 4 bosses. Make sure all dungeons (cough Deadmines) have mechanics to bypass some bosses. Stop making one boss the "magic" boss that is essentually a 70 valor pinata. Let us kill any of the bosses the dungeon offers and groups are diverse enough that everything will likely get targetted.

c) Stop blocking requeues after dungeon is "over" when bosses remain alive. If I can come in on the last boss to a continuation and still get my random reward, why can't I do it on any other boss? So you are in a PUG for Halls of O and people hit 3 bosses, get the reward, and quit group. Let me requeue and find either a new tank or even a new group to continue and the newcomers get their reward after the dungeon is fully cleared. Only when the dungeon is clear should requeues stop.

d) Make it clear when bosses are mandatory or optional. Remember how annoying Hard Modes were in Ulduar? Having to figure out or rig up a mechanic to tell the instance "I want the hard mode"? Remember saying that was a bad idea which is why in ICC you just choose normal or hard from the menu? Same deal for dungeons, guys. Put a list somewhere or put symbols on the map or even a sign in front of the bosses room "You have to do this boss to complete the dungeon and get your reward" or "This boss is optional". Likewise, if Thrones and isn't supposed to be a 2 boss dungeon and you are suppose to kill the Forge boss in BRC, put up a gate.

e) Random rotating dailies. Just like the weekly raid quest "Kill so-and-so" give the larger dungeons a random daily quest to kill 1 of the bosses from that dungeon. Maybe it's the first boss, maybe it's an optional boss, maybe it's the last boss. Either way, there's a greater chance players looking for drops will get that boss as the quest and that will be compelling enough reason to do it.
can you make ptah the bottom floor boss required to activate the elevator, instead of the lame miniboss event

camel fight is way cooler than a boring 5 minute event with no loot
I like the idea of a small valor reward on optional bosses.

10-15 valor per boss keeps the self entitled "A team" happy and lets the humble masses get the pretty gear over a smaller amount of time.

the best option is adding more dungeons that have gear thats similar in quality to those optional bosses.
What if we were to make some sort of arangement where the final boss were determined by an event of some sort? "Hey, look, a blue empowerment beam over Isiset, maybe we should kill her, as she's in charge?" Sort of a deal. A little RNG that doesn't actually affect it to much.

It may not be perfect, but hey, it gives some iota of a chance for people to down bosses that would otherwise not be mandatory.
I started leveling the hour Cata released. If I do a random dungeon, and happen to get Halls, I will skip Ptah and go straight to Rajh. I'm tired of people complaining about loot. If they want something speak up, otherwise get a group of friends together and just go to the dungeon entrance. At least that way you can farm for the gear you want without having to deal with the rest of us. Today I was able to get my final piece of valor gear. Now I can stock up valor for my worthless tier set. Have fun getting steamrolled in dungeons.
you said you lost the vote 4/5 so why should your vote count for more then theres?
believe me I know the pain of optonial bosses loot Slashing Thorns -only throwing weapon in the game before raids and it comes from ammunae but i just got guidies to go with me and there were times people got pissed at us for killing the extra bosses but majority rules

funny thing is i killed her plenty of times and never saw it drop then one night in bot Dragonwreck Throwing Axe droped so don't sweat one drop in a heroic it's not going to make or break your dps/healing/tanking
Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


When all bosses are done in HoO, the instance takes quite a bit longer than the rest of the heroics. This would be punishing to folks who are just in it for the valor points.

If you are going to make doing all four bosses on the top level a requirement for completion, please remove the trash in front of each of those four bosses to reduce the impact of the extra time that it would take for folks who no longer need heroic blues. Not everyone has 2 hours to do a 5 man especially when a large number of people in the dungeon finder queuing for heroics are only there for the 70 VP.
"Give us harder dungeons, with more stuff to do in them!"
/HoO
"Ugh we just want to get in, get our stupid VP, and get out!"
:|
03/15/2011 3:51 PMPosted by Linketh
I will skip anything I can unless someone speaks up and asks politely. Nobody ever speaks up in a nice manner. They just run along after me and hit what they are told to or complain about how they are missing JP and say wtf a lot. Just ask your tank. I don't mind taking 2 mins to kill a boss someone else needs unless I'm running my daily on my lunchbreak.


90% of the time you zone in and ask nicely nobody answers and just starts pulling crap. thats your answer from people.

leave the dungeon and waste another hour and a half re qing and cross your fingers again
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


soooo...people skipping the scripted bosses in Utgarde Pinnacle for the last 1.5 years, or the optional bosses in halls of stone, hell, even going back as far the animal boss in Kara and you only just see this now? Maybe Blizzard *is* asleep at the wheel (and I had so much faith in you guys for so long).
I only ever request the shadow boss, and only on my healer. Yeah, there's a 346 mace from TB; I have it, reforged some haste onto it. But I'd rather have full haste from the other. I also say "Let's give it a solid try; if we have too much trouble, we can skip, no need to run up repair bills." My group has always obliged and we've one-shot him every time. ...Still no mace >|

Point is, be realistic, and ask. Don't demand.


Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


How about Beauty in BRC? Recently I had a tank absolutely refuse. No extra trash, we had three CC and all dps over 10k. That's how little cooperation pugs get. That day I gave up on ever seeing any optional bosses again. But then, the gear won't matter (as much) once the troll 5-mans get put in.

In response to the blue post back on page 9:

I never think a boss should be optional, ever. In raids, you must defete all the previous bosses to move on to the final boss or the next lvl in the instance.

For instance, BWD. First part of the raid you have the choice to fight either Omnotron or Magmaw. People who can't kill Magmaw could instead do Omni if they chose to, or vice versa. However, you need to kill both befor moving onto the next lvl, which is Antremadese, Maloriak, and Chimeron. Once you have downed those 3 you have unlocked Nefarian.

I am against the way BoT is set up in that you must kill each boss sequencialy befor moving on to the next. For example, my previous guild had major issues downing V and T for the first time. We would've liked to move on to the Council but we had to down V and T first.

That's my opinion on raids, my view on 5-mans is almost identicle.

In 5-mans you should be forced to down the whole instance befor earning the chaos orb or the Valor Points, because you have not earned it, much like you haven't earned the privilage to fight nefarian until you've downed the other 5 bosses. This gives gearing players the option to kill bosses if they choose to for gear, and if they are not interested in the end prize then they don't have to finish it.
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


One of my friends quit the game almost entirely due to this. He got kicked from over a dozen PuG dungeons because he asked to do the optional bosses before Rajh. Now I know the guy; he's a very good guy and very polite. I was on one of those runs with him too. He asks very nicely, in the form of a question, not as a demand or whatever. People don't reply, and simply vote kick. When you sit in queue for 50 minutes as a DPS (this was in the first month of Cataclysm) it's completely idiotic and extremely frustrating, especially when the optional bosses are at the end.
Sorry I didn't read through every response. But how about making Halls of Origination similar to Dire Maul. But in this situation, the more optional bosses you kill, the more loot the final chest/boss will have. Problem solved.
03/13/2011 3:52 PMPosted by Dreamcypher
The random dungeon system already forces geared people (who want/need to do their daily VP) grind through heroics they clearly need nothing from, to carry ungeared folks through these dungeons. This entire premise is why that "other" game community was so up-in-arms about even having a random dungeon finder. Especially cross-realm.


The intent was for more experienced players to assist newer players in the learning process on how the dungeons work, etc.

You know. Being nice and courteous to other people.


They have 85 levels to learn how to do dungeons and play their class. They shouldnt need any explanation, and if they do they honestly shouldnt be in heroics ( even as faceroll as they are now).

You are being lazy and a mooch if you request the group to conform to your needs and explain everything to you, have some self reliance.

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