Can we have less winged raids?

General Discussion
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BoT is horribly boring in both appearance and layout. The fights are decent enough, but the interior is so bland. At least BWD looks good.

If I remember correctly, in Karazhan the only boss you had to do to progress was curator all the other encounters could be skipped and done in any order you wished.

Moroes, Curator, Chess Event and I believe Netherspite were not optional. Aran opened up the shortcut to the top..ish. Probably more non optionals, but killing the bosses also eliminated the trash linked to them for return trips.

Moroes, Opera, Curator and Chess were not optional if you wanted to get to Prince.

Aran opened up the teleporter (once they added it).
03/11/2011 9:14 PMPosted by Communism
A developer working on a particularly awesome Firelands boss encounter today took me on a tour of the dungeon. I think you'll find the layout to be a pleasant change of pace from winged dungeons. Many of the mechanics being worked on that I was shown were quite nifty as well. I'm really excited for this one. ;)

Are we allowed to bring melee this time?

03/11/2011 10:54 PMPosted by Picklelickle
I never had a problem yet as melee other then some trash mobs.

Capitan Planets fire/water trash *cringe*

/afk to watch tv while ranged kills these.

Pst if you hit the frost dude while his bubble is up you get a buff making you take no fire damage from hitting the fire shield :>
This thread is trippin' me the @%!% out.
I'm gonna be honest.

I have to agree with OP. though I'm pretty sure I don't want to have to go back to the Molten Core grind of trash trash trash trash trash -BOSS - trash trash trash trash trash - BOSS - trash trash etc.

I do however think that it doesn't have to be that way and still meet the satisfaction of OP and myself.

Bottom line for me is: Blackwing Lair is still my favorite raid layout wise. Ulduar being a very close second nearly tied with Karazhan.

There was something incredibly epic about BWL though. You spent so much time in Blackrock Spire (Lower and Upper). Questing, dungeoning, etc. All the while locked in this dark windowless network of tunnels and caves traversing Blackrock Mountain. Then you enter Blackwing Lair - with its great examples of Dark Iron Architecture. You battle your way through the halls, and suppressions, and the laboratories. As you enter each new room and down each new boss you pay note to a subtle consistent ascent in elevation. Finally you beat Chromaggus and the last portcullis opens up to Nef's chamber...

When i first entered I remember thinking HOLY CRAP! At the top of everything in Blackrock Mountain, above Molten Core, above BRD, BRS, and at the apex of BWL was Nefarian's balcony - overlooking the desolated scorched surrounding lands - illuminated by a sanguine colored moon perched in the obsidian sky. The high throne at the top of a freakin mountain!

It was monumental - or maybe just mental...

Either way thats what I took from that experience. You had to fight your way up through the corridors of Blackrock Mountain and slay the evil dude at the height of his power - figurative and literal.

I have never felt that way since then. (Note i didn't play TBC extensively, Illidan was probably much the same)

But i Wrath i didnt feel that way at all with the Lich King. He seemed doomed to begin with.

Back to Original topic though for those who are still with me lol.

Now in BWD its like huh? wha? this isn't epic! This isnt Nef's balcony! Its some freakin closet off to the side or something... Or a bathroom...

BRD - BRS - BWL and now BRC demonstrate even further that Blackrock Mountain is EXTENSIVE. They should have kept with that tradition for BWD.

Post Script: I definitely understand the introductory content may appear lacking due to so many resources and energies being spent in the revamp. Blizz has my good grace for this content patch, I'm certain they'll not have it next time if its more of the same. No excuse next time.

You had naxx which was revamped and people complained Blizz was lazy - then they gave us Ulduar which I think was one of the best. So I'm hoping for a repeat.


I'm all for more extensive raid layout.
I'm not for hours of mindless trash - but Karazhan was HUGE and extensive and I don't recall people complaining about Kara so use Kara as a template. Its vast and entertaining.

Stop with the "Welcome to your new home for the remainder of this content patch, you will be seeing a lot of it - its only 1 room - enjoy!" Please.
Look, I don't know about you guys, but I have to be honest: Blackwing Descent was not terribly interesting from a level design point of view. Nor Bastion of Twilight but slightly better than BWD. I mean, I get that there's a limit on how creative you can make the layout without going overboard especially in this era of the game where no one cares for the big epic sized raids with trash and all that. I get it.

But for the love of god, can we at least do away with the "big center area, 3 wings with 1 room each" raids???

Like come on, ICC had all this promise, then you get to the upper spire....and its just a BIG invisible wall center...with 3 rooms.

Then we get to Blackwing descent....and its 3 rooms. COME ON. Except for the impaled dragons on the ceiling , the place is superbly uninteresting. Walk to the right, 1 room maloriak, walk to the left, 1 room chim, walk some more, 1 room atramedes.

This is terrible dungeon layout. I would prefer hallways to this. Sure its great for Joe Schmo casual who wants a raid buffet line. And you've kidded yourself that the populatoin likes it but some people actualy remembered when raids looked like raids - and not single rooms.

I remember my first step into Sunwell. I was floored with how great it was. Bring back the good level design and stop feeding me Old Country Raid Buffet.

Posts like this reinforce my lack of interest in raids.

Let us partake in walking down this epic hallway. Wow, this wall color is amazing! What a detailed floor, look at the tiles! Oh lovely, there is a statue of a dragon WITH FIRE COMING OUT! Hey look, theres a boss, let's just skip it and trot down to the next room, I can't wait to see the ceiling!


I'm all for more extensive raid layout.
I'm not for hours of mindless trash - but Karazhan was HUGE and extensive and I don't recall people complaining about Kara so use Kara as a template. Its vast and entertaining.

Your recall is faulty then; there were plenty of complaints about Kara trash, especially the amount of mobs between Curator and whatever boss you went to next.
03/12/2011 5:23 AMPosted by Kimjongheal
Also, BWD is barely even winged. Having options to choose bosses doesn't = a different wing. Options are also nice to have.

If I remember correctly, in Karazhan the only boss you had to do to progress was curator all the other encounters could be skipped and done in any order you wished.

Not Quite correct, you had to take out Moroes to to do Opera
It was about 2 am, Friday morning (or Thursday evening if you prefer) and my 10 man group had just cleared through the awfully brutal trash in the first hallway of Mimiron's section of Ulduar. We'd been raiding for hours on end, actually almost days on end when you calculate in the 25 man raids our guild was doing as well. We were all brutally tired, but we wanted to press on.

I noticed the design was classic Titan design from instances such as Halls of Lightning, Halls of Stone, and the various inner tunnels out in Storm Peaks. I liked this design and didn't really think much of it though, it felt natural so I guess it sorta blended in a little.

We come across this little console, with a ramp, leading up to what at the time was unlike anything I'd ever seen before in the game. A big floating train, with an incredibly futuristic looking tunnel. We all made our way onto the train, and soon enough, it zoomed off, and took us to the other side of this tunnel.

I still remember running off the train, and down that small stretch of metal flooring to the large downward ramp. And then I stopped. There it was in front of me...a large gigantic futuristic room, huge interior space hinting that there was more to Mimiron's realm than just this room.

Above his circular room was this big gigantic machine with green lights and lasers, and huge hydraulic moving parts.

I was in awe. I loved it. I never felt in awe of anything in this game until I saw that. It made staying up and raiding all the more worth it.

And that's why great level design is as important as great boss design.
03/11/2011 9:14 PMPosted by Communism
Are we allowed to bring melee this time?
That awesome story.

And that's why great level design is as important as great boss design.

Exactly this. And the fact that the Descent into Madness really did feel like something out of an H.P. Lovecraft story? It gave me chills.

I get an echo of the same when I look up in BWD and see those dragon corpses hung near the ceiling, but as a whole the rest of the raids are sort of "vanilla" (not like classic WoW, like the ice cream flavor). Give me some situational reinforcement! I'm here for the lore, not just the phat lewts! I'm not saying we need cinematics/roleplay events before each boss, and I know some people complain about things like the Arthas/Fordring dialogue, but at least give us some sense of why. Throw the lore fanatics such as myself a bone, albeit a small one.

Although I do like Baradin Hold. It actually feels like a big old underground dungeon, with the stone halls and the guardian mobs. I like the layout of BH more than VoA, which felt really generic.
I'd prefer winged raids than a Molten Core/AQ40 layout.
ToC was Horse ##*#e
Trash is boring.

Bosses are fun.

Also, BWD is barely even winged. Having options to choose bosses doesn't = a different wing. Options are also nice to have. ❤

Trash might have purples =3.

I love chanting with my guild in raids "Purples! Purples! Purples!" everytime we drop one of those golem trash mobs or the 2 dudes in front of Magmaw (or the 900 trash mobs at the entrance to bastion).

It's almost more electable than the actual bosses since you KNOW they'll drop a purple and you know you'll be beating them momentarily anywho.

But to each their own :).
03/11/2011 8:29 PMPosted by Zujarn
We need more patch 3.2s.

Please unsubscribe right now. 3.2 was a @!%@ing disgrace.
If you're currently 8/12, I think you're doing yourself a disfavor by referring to your guild as casual.

How many guilds are that far? The number must be quite high, but the ratio is probably a little underwhelming.

My guild is currently 3/12. In Wrath we were able to pour through ICC and, eventually, kill the LK. We're not bad players, we just have limited time and a bit lower tolerance for stress. We're not the only guild like this, many guilds are experiencing the same thing right now.

I'm not suggesting that all raids should be easy, that wouldn't be fair. What I AM suggesting is that there should be an entry level raid for guilds such as mine. It doesn't need to be a pushover, but it does need a little easier difficulty curve. Look at Sarth/Naxx in Wrath, Kara in BC. That's what we're missing right now.

"Casual" doesn't mean "bad". You can take raids "seriously" and still goof around, crack jokes, not play frequently AND make progress.

If you can't kill raid bosses and try to use the "casual" excuse, your problem is "bad players that don't want to put effort into it" and not that they're "casual".

Do you consider something like woodworking or knitting or any crafting hobby as a "job" and not something you do casually because you don't like learning from your mistakes and getting better at it because you don't do it often and don't care?

If you don't care about your "hobbies" or how you perform in them, they're not hobbies. WoW is a hobby for most people. If you don't care how you do to some degree, then maybe you should do something else.

Don't forget the time factor though as well, some people can't have consistent hours or long enough game time. Some also don't have the times to join guilds and such that are on their servers, with decent skilled people either, choices are often limited.

Only exception is because some server by fact are better than others in progression, some of those "full" status hardcore PvP servers for example, have very skilled and progressed player base.

Many other realms are behind in progression, the unfortunate few skilled people on those realms are stuck to trying to carry others much of the time.

Personal skill isn't what gets any individual through raids anyways, so you can't judge person's skill by something that is dependent on 10-25 people total to cooperate in.
Ulduar was amazing from an art standpoint.

A guildie I raided through Ulduar with had to stop raiding due to the increased work she was getting from art school, and it was specifically digital art design such as in game art design that she was studying.

She logged on sometime in Patch 3.3 to check out ICC, and our guild had a full clear raid ID that week. So she went in there, checked it out, and you could hear the disappointment in her voice. The last dungeon design she had seen from Blizzard was Ulduar which was spectacular, and here in ICC there was just generic looking hallways with the same skull pattern tile replicated everywhere.

She remarked that it seemed Blizzard really called it in with ICC, and she said she was disappointed as someone who had been a huge fan of Blizzard's past in game art for dungeons (BT/Ulduar/Sunwell/Kara).

I think Blizzard needs to look back and see what made Kara and Ulduar such a hit in terms of art design and layout, and go back to that.

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