Can we have less winged raids?

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Raids used to be a lot like campings in RTS games, a storyline, conquering areas of a city or ancient temple, they would take days or weeks to complete, you'd go back to the same raid day after day and wouldn't touch a boss more than once every few weeks.

That was when raiding was as time consuming as leveling and the endgame wasn't the endgame at all, there was no endgame, the game never ended. The storylines that were part of a raid unfolded slowly and intensely and you felt that sense of accomplishment after the last boss of a raid died that you did after beating a campaign in Warcraft III.

My least favorite expansion was BC, but BT was one of the best raids designed, it had a story, it took ages to finally beat, it was tough, rough and dangerous and you grew to know it as well as or better than the areas you leveled in.

Raids should take weeks, raids should be tough, raids should be the main place to spend time in at endgame, raids should replace main cities and repquest areas as the places raiders spend most of their time in.
^ No, theirs no point in it really.
Raids used to be a lot like campings in RTS games, a storyline, conquering areas of a city or ancient temple, they would take days or weeks to complete, you'd go back to the same raid day after day and wouldn't touch a boss more than once every few weeks.

That was when raiding was as time consuming as leveling and the endgame wasn't the endgame at all, there was no endgame, the game never ended. The storylines that were part of a raid unfolded slowly and intensely and you felt that sense of accomplishment after the last boss of a raid died that you did after beating a campaign in Warcraft III.

Which game are you talking about? Because it isn't WoW.
I want more Karazhan. The feel of the place was amazing. Not to mention I loved the music :D
Yeah kara was awesome! bring more..

And develop some sort of Raid Finding tool :)
I know it is hard but would really would compensate for those who can't find groups alot of the time D:


I liked Malygos.

I didn't like the number of successful raiders who could easily handle all previous content and Phase 1 and 2, but had extreme difficulty adapting to flying in 3D space.

I think a lot of these bosses that people have difficulty with are tied to computer performance issues. We had a number of people who were not idiots on other fights but repeatedly and royally screwed us over on Sindragosa, for example. Something about that fight would really hurt marginal computers. I think Malygos was a similar situation.


I have an issue with "3D space" but it's not my computer, rather it's a depth perception issue on my part and the fact that my eyesight generally sucks. All my graphics are great and I can "see" everything around me.... I just can't tell how far away I am from anything.

Flying on the discs and dragons wasn't too big of a deal and I got used to it quick, but Al'Akir phase 3 made me want to punch kittens. A little too unfriendly to some of us with terrible eyesight issues.

As far as raids go, I have to agree that Karazhan was one of the best designed instances. The storyline was great, the trash fit perfectly and the bosses were pretty fun. I'd have to throw Ulduar up there with it as well. Oh and there's a reason why MC is often referred to as "Molten Snore" endless, boring trash... after we got Shazz down, my raid leader would always say "And now for the best part of Molten Core!" meaning, try and stay awake through the endless trash packs to come.
I've said it before on the forums and I'll say it again...

Bring back my BC style raids. Even Hyjal had it's fun moments and it was a wave-mechanic style raid.

If you didn't have the extremely small amount of time spent outside in ICC on the ramparts to get to the gunship battle and Saurfang, you probably wouldn't have even noticed you were higher up in the citadel when you got to the next four bosses. It looked generally the same.

Kara, however, had catwalks and ramps that you could FALL OFF OF back down into sections of content you'd already cleared. You could literally see how much progress you had made by changing your camera angle and looking down.

If you don't like trash, great for you. It just doesn't make sense to have raids that are supposed to be considered an epic experience where there are no lesser beings to mow down on your way to the big shots. Besides, most of the reason you all probably don't like it is because you're still stuck in the old WotLK paradigm of grouping the packs and AoEing EVERYTHING down. Even some boss fight adds.

I remember bosses where you had a specific kill order on ALL the adds. Not just jobs to keep people busy such as those on Valithria. The only fun on that boss that I had was to be on my hunter and play keep-away with other hunters on the exploding zombies. I didn't have a pally so I always got to be forced to raid heal if I ever brought a healer and if you were tanking... Guess what you got to do. You grouped adds and sat there while they beat your face. Wow. Fun. Have you ever had to kill something or, god forbid, CC on a boss fight recently? Moroes (Kara), Wizard of Oz (Opera Event, Kara), Iron Council (Ulduar).. Just to name a few of my personal favorites.

Also... While I'm ranting... Blizz, please make more instances like BRC in that you HAVE to do all the bosses to make it to the end. I'm tired of trying to run dungeons for JP to get some gear when the rest of the group wants to skip half the bosses. I like Halls of Origination. It feels and plays really well to me. But, guess what... 1/3 of the bosses downstairs and 3/4 bosses upstairs are skip-able. If I thought I didn't need gear like half the groups I run with, I wouldn't queue for a random dungeon.

EDIT: Also, I don't much care for the ability to skip bosses in raids, either. I don't see why you would put the time and effort into designing a boss fight simply as a loot-based stepping stone for harder portions of the instance. Why bother? Just have the required bosses drop more loot. It's not like anyone will be killing the optional bosses once their core raid groups have all the gear they need from them, anyway.
03/14/2011 2:59 AMPosted by Dryarae
If you don't like trash, great for you. It just doesn't make sense to have raids that are supposed to be considered an epic experience where there are no lesser beings to mow down on your way to the big shots. Besides, most of the reason you all probably don't like it is because you're still stuck in the old WotLK paradigm of grouping the packs and AoEing EVERYTHING down. Even some boss fight adds.

No, I don't like trash because I remember instances like MC, Hyjal and Karazhan's library, which were tedious slogs. There's a difference between awe and yawn.
I liked Malygos.

I didn't like the number of successful raiders who could easily handle all previous content and Phase 1 and 2, but had extreme difficulty adapting to flying in 3D space.

I think a lot of these bosses that people have difficulty with are tied to computer performance issues. We had a number of people who were not idiots on other fights but repeatedly and royally screwed us over on Sindragosa, for example. Something about that fight would really hurt marginal computers. I think Malygos was a similar situation.

I have an issue with "3D space" but it's not my computer, rather it's a depth perception issue on my part and the fact that my eyesight generally sucks. All my graphics are great and I can "see" everything around me.... I just can't tell how far away I am from anything.

Flying on the discs and dragons wasn't too big of a deal and I got used to it quick, but Al'Akir phase 3 made me want to punch kittens. A little too unfriendly to some of us with terrible eyesight issues.

Yeah, I only did Malygos once during Wrath (I was already burning out, and doing that and Naxx didn't make me ANY more excited to stick around...really sad I missed Ulduar though), but even when I did it again recently my problem was the visual parsing. I guess I would've probably gotten used to it if I'd done it more, but turning into a huge dragon that takes up most of the screen and being crammed next to a bunch of other dragons (who are all flapping their wings) turned the on-screen information into complete garbage. That combined with the fact that my priest turned into some kind of insane healing rogue was just uncalled for. HATE HATE HATE
I hate these winged raids. The game feels smaller and less epic all the time. I think a winged raid can be nice from time to time but at some point this has gotten just silly when they are pretty much all winged raids.
I've said it before on the forums and I'll say it again...

Bring back my BC style raids. Even Hyjal had it's fun moments and it was a wave-mechanic style raid.

[snipped for length]

EDIT: Also, I don't much care for the ability to skip bosses in raids, either. I don't see why you would put the time and effort into designing a boss fight simply as a loot-based stepping stone for harder portions of the instance. Why bother? Just have the required bosses drop more loot. It's not like anyone will be killing the optional bosses once their core raid groups have all the gear they need from them, anyway.


...I think I love you. Marry me?

Look at it from a storyline point of view. Does it make sense to go into a big old EVIL LAIR and say, "Oh, well, even though we've got all the leaders of the Twilight's Hammer in one place, let's just worry about Cho'gall. I'm sure if we kill him, it will be enough. And no one will notice us sneaking by through the corridors (despite the unlikelihood of sneaking while wearing plate boots)."

I think if you skip bosses in a raid, those bosses should aggro at the final boss. That'd teach people to pick and choose.

Edit: Yes, I realize you can't just skip to Cho'gall, but the point remains.
Trash is boring.

Bosses are fun.


Only tash is boring, only bosses is just as boring.

The best raid instances have a good mix of everything. Karazan, BT, SSC, Ulduar are all awesome and they are all huge, multiple paths dungeons with both a good amount of trash and bosses.

The worst instances on the other hand are all hallways or circle room with little trash and a forced, fixed boss order.
Toc didn't have trash cause all the bosses were enlarged trash.
TOC was a joke and was the worst raid ever developed. Some trash is fine. It doesn't need to be ridiculous like some of the trash packs in Kara leading up to Shade were, or Freya's room in Ulduar, but you have to have some trash. Every action/adventure/RPG type of game has minions leading up to the boss(es).

As far as the winged stuff goes, I don't really mind too much. It gives us flexibility and choice on what we want to tackle first. Ulduar had wings and it's probably my all-time favorite raid. Hell even Kara had wings and optional bosses to some extent.
03/14/2011 7:39 AMPosted by Térry
Toc didn't have trash cause all the bosses were enlarged trash.


To claim it to be trash, you've cleared everything on heroic 10/25?
Yes I did, cept anub cause icc came out. And all the bosses were giant versions of trash, srsly, just copy pasted trash that got enlarged <_<
Toc didn't have trash cause all the bosses were enlarged trash.

To claim it to be trash, you've cleared everything on heroic 10/25?


Except for the last boss, the other bosses literally are beefed up trash mobs. It's not about the difficulty, it's about the lore.

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