High Level Guards Ruin World PVP

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Flying mounts killed world pvp.


Why do people say that? Flying mounts were only available in Outlands and Northrend for a VERY LONG time. They only recently were added to Azeroth as a whole. People have been complaining about the lack of world PvP for YEARS.

I know for a fact people were complaining about a lack of world PvP just a few months before Cataclysm was released.

World PvP has been gone for a looooong time and flying mounts had very little, if anything at all, to do with it.

World PvP hasn't existed in places where flying mounts couldn't even go for so long I don't understand why people blame flight for the death of World PvP. You couldn't fly over Stormwind or Orgimmar 6 months ago.....where was the World PvP then? You couldn't fly over Tarren Mill, Southshore, or The Barrens....where was world PvP then?


You sound like you're defending it.

I don't know about your realm, but on my both realms, there was almost always a gank group forming. Normally no more than 2-3 people though. But now that number is 0. That's because of flying mounts. And during BC and wotlk, no one cared about the capital cities anyway. At least, the majority didn't. Trade: Thrall is under attack! Trade: Let me know when he dies. Trade: Cool story bro.

While flying mounts were only available in outland and Northrend for a very long time, those 2 places, at their respective times, were the only places most players hung out. Aside from sometimes going to an AH if you didn't use your alt for it, the places to be were Dalaran, and Shattrath. Both neutral zones, both in worlds where you could leave, and return on a flying mount. And when you returned to Azeroth, you did have some world pvp. But world pvp was dead, or near dead in the currently existing zones. Cataclysm's introduction removed the last little bit of world pvp.

As you said, people have been complaining about the lack of world pvp for years. BC has been out for years. Wotlk was our for years. Cataclysm was more less the final killing blow.

Try to remember back before flying mounts. It was much easier to gank, and be ganked. Your only real safe location was a capital city. (Light's hope chapel lol)
Now safety is but a 1.5 second cast, and a space bar away everywhere.
there was a little world pvp in the twilight highlands daily area, until everyone got exalted


griefing is different than world pvp

you could discourage griefing with a smarter dishonorable kill system re-implemented
Hrm, I reckon it's rewards that ruined world PvP. Everyone harkens back to TM/SS as the holy grail of world PvP, and that was before and maybe slightly after the honor system was implemented (but before real rewards existed from it). I think you can encourage world PvP all you want, and if there aren't rewards behind it you'll keep people interested for about as long as it takes them to realize there are other things to do that give real power increases. Why would anyone spend any amount of time just pushing back and forth for no reason when you can spend your time toward actual rewards and character improvement? Maybe there are some of you, but I guarantee it'd be short lived.

I mean shoot, you have Isle of Quel'Danas or even quest hubs in Cataclysm where people are literally forced together, and there's complaints that they just want people to stop PvPing so they can get their stuff done so they can get their rewards. That's kind of unfair because I know many did enjoy those situations, but somehow it never meets the awesomeness of TM/SS, and I reckon it just never could again.

The best I can think that you could do is create a specific world PvP zone where you don't allow flying mounts, give some objective to tug-o-war over, and so you can justify giving some semi-meaningful rewards and keep people interested you'd need to find some way to even up the sides (because world PvP is inherently going to be unfair). I think you do all that and you probably have the best working solution for bringing back world PvP.



Absolutely right on target with this. Any chance we could see some of what you (and many others) have said in the future of Cataclysm? Rewards (even if they are titles, mounts or other non-gear) and ongoing objectives are all I need.
I miss Wintergrasp, it was a great fight when you had even teams and in between battles it was still populated by farmers and people questing so there was always someone around to gank.

This would never happen but if you raised the NPC levels, herbs, mining nodes and the raid bosses in Wintergrasp to Cataclysm levels it would be so much more popular than TB. In terms of questing and leveling progression there is no reason why you couldn't do it though, Wintergrasp is a independent zone.
High level guards didn't ruin world PvP, but the players not wanting to get ganked and camped ruined it. High level guards were the solution Blizzard implemented to that problem which intentionally killed certain types of world PvP. With flying mounts now, I'm not sure we can really get proper world PvP back anyways. At best, you would just get swarms of players flying around looking for players to swoop down and kill.

I think some of the good aspects of world PvP can still exist with a PvP zone where you fight back and forth forever. There could be multiple bases to capture and defend if necessary, where the difficulty increases until it is impossible to capture the next point.

For balancing PvP zones, I think a transition to automatically adjusting AI is required. It works in tons of games, and doesn't have the problems 1:1 queues and tenacity have. An example implementation would be adding NPCs to the weaker side to accomplish the desired balance. The number of NPCs would adjust dynamically mid-fight, and you'd probably want an increasing bias to defenders as more and more ground is lost.
Hrm, I reckon it's rewards that ruined world PvP. Everyone harkens back to TM/SS as the holy grail of world PvP, and that was before and maybe slightly after the honor system was implemented (but before real rewards existed from it). I think you can encourage world PvP all you want, and if there aren't rewards behind it you'll keep people interested for about as long as it takes them to realize there are other things to do that give real power increases. Why would anyone spend any amount of time just pushing back and forth for no reason when you can spend your time toward actual rewards and character improvement? Maybe there are some of you, but I guarantee it'd be short lived.

I mean shoot, you have Isle of Quel'Danas or even quest hubs in Cataclysm where people are literally forced together, and there's complaints that they just want people to stop PvPing so they can get their stuff done so they can get their rewards. That's kind of unfair because I know many did enjoy those situations, but somehow it never meets the awesomeness of TM/SS, and I reckon it just never could again.

The best I can think that you could do is create a specific world PvP zone where you don't allow flying mounts, give some objective to tug-o-war over, and so you can justify giving some semi-meaningful rewards and keep people interested you'd need to find some way to even up the sides (because world PvP is inherently going to be unfair). I think you do all that and you probably have the best working solution for bringing back world PvP.


This actually a very good summary of the situation. There's tons of fun things people used to do in the game (Southshore battles, harrassing towns, raiding cities, duels, exploring...etc.)However, with the advent of "rewards" targeted toward certain kind of play... it sort of sucked up the oxygen for anything.

The best I can think that you could do is create a specific world PvP zone where you don't allow flying mounts, give some objective to tug-o-war over, and so you can justify giving some semi-meaningful rewards and keep people interested you'd need to find some way to even up the sides (because world PvP is inherently going to be unfair). I think you do all that and you probably have the best working solution for bringing back world PvP.


*cough Tol Barad *cough

Uhh, that's basically a sanctioned battleground. You even have to qeue for it. People form groups to grind dailies and leave other groups alone most of the time.
You're probably the one who goes ganking lowbies and when they show up with their main you run away like a sissy.


Not at all.
I miss Wintergrasp, it was a great fight when you had even teams and in between battles it was still populated by farmers and people questing so there was always someone around to gank.

This would never happen but if you raised the NPC levels, herbs, mining nodes and the raid bosses in Wintergrasp to Cataclysm levels it would be so much more popular than TB. In terms of questing and leveling progression there is no reason why you couldn't do it though, Wintergrasp is a independent zone.



I agree. WG was so much better than TB will ever be. TB is just one long zerg, WG was an epic battle.
Solution:
Either remove the guards, or spawn guards relative to the level of the attacking player.

Having level 85 guards patrolling/protecting a level 45-50 zone is silly.
Why do they need us to quest there, if the guards could go one shot all of the mobs?


To keep bored dysfunctional brats from constantly griefing the area. If you don't like the level 85 guards, you can thank all those brats that would spend hours repeatedly killing quest givers and low levels who happen to run by JUST because they got their jollies from making people miserable. And, just because they have this odd perception that killing a computer controlled guard of the opposite faction was in some distorted way, world PvP.
the problem with world pvp is this

Reputation farming, there is no rep to be grinded in the world, remember farming timbermaw rep in felwood and winterspring, Cenarian Cirle Rep in silithus and allt he fighting the went on over the grinding spots. All you do now is put a tabard on and run instances nothing out in the world to do. The biggest thing is flying mounts, remember running round and using my discombobulator rays to dismount people so they had to fight, can't do that on a flying mount.

There is no reason at all to go out in the world and not just fly around on your mount, the TM/SS phase was just the response to the honor system coming out, and the only place where the horde and alliance towns were close together.

Not to mention most people's ideas of world pvp are ganking people a lot lower lvl than they are. One of the things back in vanilla that encouraged a lot of world pvp was the people going into lowbies zones and owning up questing areas forcing people to bring their mains out and fight for it; Darkshire, Red Ridge, STV, Gadgetzan, Grom'gol, Booty Bay, Menethil Harbor, The Crossroads, But then blizzard decided to buff the guards in the goblin towns and give them those retarded knock backs. Yes I think guards are a big issue with world pvp, it takes the owning of a quest area to get people to come out on their mains, if you are on a PvP server this should be something you expect, and be prepared to deal with, otherwise why are you on a PvP server?
Seems like the subtext of Bashiok's post is they are going to add a Southshore like area for tug of war pvp... w/ some mediocre rewards.
Because you shouldn't go cruising around the world looking for lowbies to murder when you're still a lowbie yourself.

If you want world pvp fine, but you tards that do nothing but grief people 20 levels lower than you are the very reason these guards exist in the first place. If everyone and their mom didn't hop on their main anytime someone looked at them funny pvp servers might actually be fun again.

And no equal level guards don't work, because your average level 40 is easily capable of slaughtering npcs of equal level. Make them 5 levels higher, un-tethered elites with stealth detection and then it just might be a good idea. Probably not though.
Because you shouldn't go cruising around the world looking for lowbies to murder when you're still a lowbie yourself.

If you want world pvp fine, but you tards that do nothing but grief people 20 levels lower than you are the very reason these guards exist in the first place.


I think you've illustrated the general problem of this thread. People read that they're talking about lowbies of equal level, then somehow forget that's what the topic was in order to assign somebody the "ganker" label. You aren't griefing people 20 levels lower than you are if you're fighting people of the same level. That's a logical impossibility, but somehow it seems to escape everybody's notice. My guess is the rage of remembering the last time that ganker got people while they were leveling up is making them lose focus. I've encountered that sort of reaction in many threads when discussing differences in level between players in PvP. There's a kneejerk reaction to yell "GANKER! LOWBIE-CAMPER" and ignore the content of the thread.

03/17/2011 7:45 PMPosted by Octahedron
And no equal level guards don't work, because your average level 40 is easily capable of slaughtering npcs of equal level. Make them 5 levels higher, un-tethered elites with stealth detection and then it just might be a good idea. Probably not though.


Town guards are already tougher than typical NPCs of their level. However I'd agree that they ought to be 5 levels higher, though not elite. Stealth detection I'd say should be reserved for guards in the starting zones. Not sure what the point of not tethering is supposed to be though. So they can be drawn away from their positions and never return because their target is mounted and ran through town?
Hrm, I reckon it's rewards that ruined world PvP. Everyone harkens back to TM/SS as the holy grail of world PvP, and that was before and maybe slightly after the honor system was implemented (but before real rewards existed from it). I think you can encourage world PvP all you want, and if there aren't rewards behind it you'll keep people interested for about as long as it takes them to realize there are other things to do that give real power increases. Why would anyone spend any amount of time just pushing back and forth for no reason when you can spend your time toward actual rewards and character improvement? Maybe there are some of you, but I guarantee it'd be short lived.

I mean shoot, you have Isle of Quel'Danas or even quest hubs in Cataclysm where people are literally forced together, and there's complaints that they just want people to stop PvPing so they can get their stuff done so they can get their rewards. That's kind of unfair because I know many did enjoy those situations, but somehow it never meets the awesomeness of TM/SS, and I reckon it just never could again.

The best I can think that you could do is create a specific world PvP zone where you don't allow flying mounts, give some objective to tug-o-war over, and so you can justify giving some semi-meaningful rewards and keep people interested you'd need to find some way to even up the sides (because world PvP is inherently going to be unfair). I think you do all that and you probably have the best working solution for bringing back world PvP.


I think you have the wrong idea. You keep trying to structure world PvP. You tried it in WG and TB and as fun as those can be, its just not the same, especially with the time and player limits.

There are no flash points anywhere because we are constantly kept away from each other, the final blow being the fall of SS. Add in flying and no one ever has a reason to even see the other faction except for, maybe, holiday events.

Rather than forcing us to fight one another for the right to run a dungeon every few hours, bring back Hellfire type capture points that give a bonus of some sort. Nothing that will ruin the other side's fun but something worth fighting for that's not just another piece of gear. A buff to damage or exp or even gathering. Only have the buff last 15 to 20 minutes so the fighting keeps going continually. Put it somewhere both sides would actually want to be and see what happens.



03/17/2011 6:51 PMPosted by Marathel
You're probably the one who goes ganking lowbies and when they show up with their main you run away like a sissy.
... or go run & hide in the Stockade Instance in Stormwind when your health gets low like the Horde do when they "attack".
Hrm, I reckon it's rewards that ruined world PvP. Everyone harkens back to TM/SS as the holy grail of world PvP, and that was before and maybe slightly after the honor system was implemented (but before real rewards existed from it). I think you can encourage world PvP all you want, and if there aren't rewards behind it you'll keep people interested for about as long as it takes them to realize there are other things to do that give real power increases. Why would anyone spend any amount of time just pushing back and forth for no reason when you can spend your time toward actual rewards and character improvement? Maybe there are some of you, but I guarantee it'd be short lived.

I mean shoot, you have Isle of Quel'Danas or even quest hubs in Cataclysm where people are literally forced together, and there's complaints that they just want people to stop PvPing so they can get their stuff done so they can get their rewards. That's kind of unfair because I know many did enjoy those situations, but somehow it never meets the awesomeness of TM/SS, and I reckon it just never could again.

The best I can think that you could do is create a specific world PvP zone where you don't allow flying mounts, give some objective to tug-o-war over, and so you can justify giving some semi-meaningful rewards and keep people interested you'd need to find some way to even up the sides (because world PvP is inherently going to be unfair). I think you do all that and you probably have the best working solution for bringing back world PvP.
tol barad is basically what you described in your last paragraph (85 only zone focused on pvp rewards with something to fight over) except someone decided to put the most powerful guards in this zone. Please, remove tol barad gaurds so we have a fun, active area to world pvp.
High Level Guards Ruin World PVP


You know... REAL world PvP has died out since WWII. Don't think it's a game-only phenomenon.

Yea there are skirmishes in the middle east, but once they sell all of their oil, they'll be begging for us to give them our un-eaten french fries.

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