Ask the Devs - Answers #5: Achievements

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ITT, like the others, a whole bunch of "It's fine"

Also,

04/13/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Bashiok
On the other hand, we were pretty clear that they would only be available for a limited time, and we hate to go back on our word


Yes because Blizzard NEVER does that.
04/13/2011 10:59 AMPosted by Madbao
Nothing is said with a grain of certainty and the Devs just reach around each question with a vague and indecisive answer.


Welcome to the Q&A threads.
"Jenkins" is fun. This game needs a serious dose of silly right now.


Silly? Have you quested 80-85? Cataclysm has more absurd, hilarious content than serious. Not that I'm complaining, I loved every minute of it.
that cheev was just so much RNG (tank gets mc'd by kel? almost guaranteed wipe) that it was honestly unfair

Almost guaranteed.
I know this because the guild I got it with played through it. We played through someone DC'ing on Thaddius, the entire guild switching sides on the fly so we could win. We played through someone else DCing mid-Sapphiron, a priest casting a perfectly timed wings. We played through the add tank getting iceblocked on KT. All of this - all of these things happened the night we got Immortal and our black drakes.

Players have been able to lol the way through Naxx with a few pieces of H Ulduar gear. What makes the achievement difficult at all is gone. You shouldn't be able to get a mount for standing instead of dancing, etc just because you have enough stam to live through it.
04/13/2011 11:05 AMPosted by Bogoran
"Jenkins" is fun. This game needs a serious dose of silly right now.


Silly? Have you quested 80-85? Cataclysm has more absurd, hilarious content than serious. Not that I'm complaining, I loved every minute of it.


You're right! I'd forgotten.
Q: Will you ever bring back the mounts for achievements that were removed (Naxx Glory runs) as you didn't remove the later mounts? – Joyia (North America/ANZ)
A: This is a tough one. On the one hand, we know there are a lot of players who would still like to get their hands on these mounts. On the other hand, we were pretty clear that they would only be available for a limited time, and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed. This is the kind of thing that is not set in stone and player feedback might eventually convince us to change our minds.

Please don't do it. Please. Please please.

It is quite a terrible thing to see. Another player with an item you got years ago getting it today. It just makes my play experience so terrible! I wouldn't be able to log back on just in fear of seeing someone riding a Black or Plague proto (gained after the door closed).
Q: Will you ever bring back the mounts for achievements that were removed (Naxx Glory runs) as you didn't remove the later mounts?

A: This is a tough one. On the one hand, we know there are a lot of players who would still like to get their hands on these mounts. On the other hand, we were pretty clear that they would only be available for a limited time, and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed. This is the kind of thing that is not set in stone and player feedback might eventually convince us to change our minds.


I thought this was already a majority in favor of reinstatement. I mean, there are several 10+ page threads about this already. Should I bump them? Anyways the people who disagreed are just a bunch of elitist that care about them selves a little too much. And besides most that agree likely do not post on these forums much.

Q: The Achievement reward for “What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been” still remains as a purple proto-drake, which is a WotLK model. How about coordinating the color of the reward upon each expansion theme?

A: The issue with meta-achievements like this is deciding how to structure them for the future. Do current players with the achievement just get a new mount every expansion? Do the old mounts go away and the new mount replaces it? Do we require you to just do one additional holiday and now you can get a second mount? We added Long Strange Trip when achievements first went in the game, and we didn’t always do a great job of designing some achievements with expandability in mind. If we had made the Long Strange Trip reward a protodrake at level 80 and then had a new achievement for doing the holidays again at level 85 that rewarded a different drake, then we might have some easily expandable content. We didn’t do that though, and it’s hard to go back and mess with existing achievements, especially ones that were hard to complete.


I suggest adding new ones for the new holiday achievements that were not placed into the orginal meta so you can get both rewards. Examples include: Veteran Nanny, Turkey Day achievements, a few others...with he exception of Mask for all Occasions, that takes a decade to complete.
I would like Naxx mounts back as well! Those players who demand that they not be reintroduced have the titles now (really awesome titles at that).

Please please bring them back <333 I wasn't able to raid very much during Naxx so I was unable to obtain the mounts. I would love to be able to have these mounts. Would be more meaningful to go back to Naxx and obtain those achievements as well.


This.
They can keep their titles, make the mounts available for everyone again.
04/13/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Bashiok
On that note, we are adding unique ground mounts to winning Rated Battle Grounds similar to the flying mounts you get for excelling at Arenas.



Are we going to see these mounts awarded with Points and rating or are these going to only be for the gladiator and hero of the horde/alliance people?
04/13/2011 11:07 AMPosted by Kaneka
Players have been able to lol the way through Naxx with a few pieces of H Ulduar gear. What makes the achievement difficult at all is gone. You shouldn't be able to get a mount for standing instead of dancing, etc just because you have enough stam to live through it.


That's a lie.

Nobody wearing Ulduar gear has touched Naxx at all since Ulduar came out and the achievement rewards were removed, so nobody could have "loled their way through it."
04/13/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Bashiok
“Jenkins” is a fun for a silly achievement, considering its history, but too much of that sort of thing would get tedious pretty quickly.


I feel almost exactly the opposite way; I think it's fun, and that more silly and fun achievements like that would be fun, because more fun is more fun.
The game itself seems like you have two teams, the silly fun team (they did Uldum and a lot of the 1-60 revamp) and serious fantasy rpg team (who design raid encounters to break our spirit), and they're not on speaking terms.
Q: Will we ever see a change to the Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin exalted achievement /reputation grinds? While normally a fan of time consuming achievements, these two seem to be a tad excessive. Warsong moreso as you can go entire games without gaining any reputation at all. You could in theory lose every AB you ever do, and eventually get exalted at a "reasonable" pace. Perhaps award rep for Flag returns, killing efcs, capping bases, HKs similar to Alteracy Valley, etc.

    A: We think those are fine as achievements. They definitely take a huge time commitment, but so do some of the other achievements. And you don’t need to get them for the meta achievements.


Oh, really? They're not part of meta achievements? Are there plans to remove The Justicar and The Conqueror then? Or how about the guild achievement that requires all of these?

Just because other achievements need a lot of time invested does not mean that this is fine and dandy. Some of those other achievements are pretty messed up too now, and two wrongs don't make a right. For example, now that Duke Hydraxis and his quests were removed in Cataclysm, the time that is required to get Exalted with Hydraxian Waterlords has been increased. The only way to get this achievement now is to do six full months of weekly Molten Core runs. That's six months of running outdated content for a reputation that doesn't even have a quartermaster anymore.

Edit: Similar to the example of Molten Core, and on a much more shocking scale, the battleground reputations in question didn't always take this much time to earn either. I encourage you to read post #42 of this thread, where Lorinall brings up some excellent points that I was not aware of. Like Molten core, these reputations were not originally designed to be the grind that they have become today.

Doesn't this all go back against Blizzard's constantly repeated statement about "wanting players to continue moving on to newer content, as the game is constantly evolving"? (For example, when people ask for Vanilla servers to be implemented, they're met with this response.) Or how about Bashiok's fairly recent post, where it was said...

I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general.

...I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements


I keep seeing Blizzard posting about goals like these, which I believe are very noble and reachable goals. Blizzard boosted the reputation gain of other old world grinds in the past in order to support this philosophy. However, the reputations now in question have instead increased in required time commitment over the years. Now that Blizzard has technically answered the original poster's question by officially saying that they don't plan to fix these reputations, doesn't it just raise the new and more important question of "why not"? Why couldn't they elaborate on this answer like they did with the others?

They said in this same post that they don't ever want to "go back on their word." Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they appear to be contradicting their own previously stated goals and actions here? I don't exactly see this encouraging players to enjoy the newer battlegrounds and other such content.
Q: Will we ever see a change to the Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin exalted achievement /reputation grinds? While normally a fan of time consuming achievements, these two seem to be a tad excessive. Warsong moreso as you can go entire games without gaining any reputation at all. You could in theory lose every AB you ever do, and eventually get exalted at a "reasonable" pace. Perhaps award rep for Flag returns, killing efcs, capping bases, HKs similar to Alteracy Valley, etc. – Idkmybffyata (North America/ANZ), Lunaticheart (Korea)

A: We think those are fine as achievements. They definitely take a huge time commitment, but so do some of the other achievements. And you don’t need to get them for the meta achievements.


:) Thank you Blizzard. Glad you are sticking to your guns on this one.

Overall this Q&A has been the best in my opinion, though, short on questions answered, still good.
Thank you Blizzard for taking the time to answer these, we really appreciate, most of us anyway.
We added the Keymaster achievement and then almost immediately decided to deemphasize the existence of keys in the game, and thus removed the achievement. Unfortunately it probably isn't even possible to track who had the older keys now.


You can't tell who used to have the achievement?

Didn't the character armory feeds show "such and such has earned the achievement "Keymaster" back when it happened? Even if the achievement is removed, I'd think you could still check those logs.

04/13/2011 11:59 AMPosted by Sgtpain
This round of Answers sucked. Try harder to give better answers next time please. We already knew most of what was given as an answer. The whole point of these is to give us new info, not share something we already knew. So, again, try harder for better answers.

I think what you mean is try to select better questions. Sorry if the answers weren't the ones you wanted to hear :-P

Q: Will you ever bring back the mounts for achievements that were removed (Naxx Glory runs) as you didn't remove the later mounts? – Joyia (North America/ANZ)
    A: This is a tough one. On the one hand, we know there are a lot of players who would still like to get their hands on these mounts. On the other hand, we were pretty clear that they would only be available for a limited time, and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed. This is the kind of thing that is not set in stone and player feedback might eventually convince us to change our minds.



This answer is kinda funny. Nothing stopped you from opening the Rank 13-14 gear to everybody back in Vanilla (including the mounts). In 2 days, someone was capable of getting what others had to endure during 3-4 months of playing 16-20 hours a day, 7 days a week. As well, nothing stopped you from bringing back the old pvp titles, which was the only thing left some people (including myself) had from that nasty grind.

and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed


If you didn't care about the heroic efforts thousands of pvpers put into getting their Rank 13-14 gear, titles and mounts, why would you care about the "heroic efforts" some people put into getting some mounts in Naxx/EoE/OS?

Q: Will you ever bring back the mounts for achievements that were removed (Naxx Glory runs) as you didn't remove the later mounts? – Joyia (North America/ANZ)
    A: This is a tough one. On the one hand, we know there are a lot of players who would still like to get their hands on these mounts. On the other hand, we were pretty clear that they would only be available for a limited time, and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed. This is the kind of thing that is not set in stone and player feedback might eventually convince us to change our minds.



This answer is kinda funny. Nothing stopped you from opening the Rank 13-14 gear to everybody back in Vanilla (including the mounts). In 2 days, someone was capable of getting what others had to endure during 3-4 months of playing 16-20 hours a day, 7 days a week. As well, nothing stopped you from bringing back the old pvp titles, which was the only thing left some people (including myself) had from that nasty grind.

and we hate to go back on our word because we know some groups went through heroic efforts to get them before the door closed


If you didn't care about the heroic efforts thousands of pvpers put into getting their Rank 13-14 gear, titles and mounts, why would you care about the "heroic efforts" some people put into getting some mounts in Naxx/EoE/OS?


Very good points here. I agree with you 100%.
They never seem to think of the ramifications of doing such things that effect PvPers in this way, but they always cater to the thought of the PvE Raiders concerns on there objections to things like this. Having Blood Guard was one of the very few things that separated me differently because I /had/ a special title. Now it is really, nothing.
So why not bring back the mount, AND the title for Naxxramas, as you disrespectfully did to old world PvPers. Just doesn't seem fair to allow it for one aspect of the game, and not the other.

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