Roguedom Thread #2: The FA of Qs

Rogue
Good day, fellow rogue-shaped people. I've filled in the PvP sections a little bit more and re-organized them. Still much left to do, though, and PvP is by far my weakest subject, so I'd deeply appreciate extra eyeballs on what I've put there to be sure it's complete and accurate.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369742267#14
I also just completed a pass of both this thread and the 'Guide to Guides' sticky in an effort to make sure they're both helpful, but distinctly different, resources.

Namely, I removed all of the stuff I had dumped into post #1 of the sticky having to do with patch 4.1, stealth issues, the debate over how under-represented rogues are in WoW, etc. All of that stuff has now been integrated with *this* thread in the sections where it makes the most sense.

Fascinating stuff, I know. Yes, I really am this riveting in real life.
I've reorganized the PvE sections in hopes of making it easier to get at the specific area a person might be interested in. Also added several new questions, and liberally incorporated links to Caera's new work of high-end rogue literature, the Cloak and Dagger Compendium, which I fully expect to see added to the required reading lists in rogue college classes around the country this fall.

Still not convinced of the ultimate viability of this thread, particularly considering how good the guides in this forum already are (both those that have been stickied and those that have yet to be). I'd love y'all's helpful feedback one way or the other, along with recommendations for additional Q&As that would be worth adding here.
I'd love y'all's helpful feedback one way or the other, along with recommendations for additional Q&As that would be worth adding here.


It still makes me giggle to hear people say, "y'all," is that constructive, eh?


I'm impressed going through some of your links, I found quotes to myself I forgot I ever made, amazing others remembered them enough to find them in the ever again.

Otherwisely, great job so far.
04/17/2011 05:11 PMPosted by Caera
It still makes me giggle to hear people say, "y'all," is that constructive, eh?

I'm honoured to have the favour of your appreciation for the colourful language we Americans use from time to time. From A to Zed, I realise there are many words we share. And many we do not. :)

(I'm actually an East Coaster through most of my life; I think y'all is kinda charming, though.)

04/17/2011 05:11 PMPosted by Caera
I'm impressed going through some of your links, I found quotes to myself I forgot I ever made, amazing others remembered them enough to find them in the ever again.


It's people like you who are the reason this thread exists in the first place. When I came back to these forums several months ago, I began cataloging -- er, sorry, *cataloguing* -- basically every useful or insightful post I came across, so I could use it for reference in the future when answering other people's questions or addressing my own. The list got to a point where I realized it was comprehensive enough to warrant sharing it with others.

I've got dozens more assorted odds and ends I haven't figured out quite how to link to. Or if there's any point, since many don't exactly answer "common" questions. For instance, there was a cool exchange in a thread a few weeks ago about the idea of Combat PvE rogues switching weapons just before they hit Killing Spree. Fascinating? Possibly. A common question? Hells naw.
I'm seeing "Unheeded Warning" in thread titles so often that they're popping up in my dreams. So I've added this to the PvP Nitty-Gritty section:

TRINKETS: Is Unheeded Warning worth buying?
  • Yes, if gold is not an object and you put a high priority on the ability to sustain offensive pressure in arena and battlegrounds.
  • There are trinkets that will net you higher overall DPS, such as Tia's Grace and Fluid Death, but they require uptime on your target to be used to their full effectiveness. UH provides a constant agility boost that would only be *enhanced* by its weapon damage proc, whereas those other trinkets lose most of their value unless the proc is active.
  • The vast majority of rogues in top-rated arena teams and rated battlegrounds go with a combination of UH and Vicious Gladiator's Medallion of Tenacity, which suggests that pairing works pretty well. There are notable exceptions -- Reckful, for instance, goes with Vicious Gladiator's Badge of Conquest and Vicious Gladiator's Insignia of Conquest -- but Reckful's human racial (Every Man for Himself) effectively replaces the snare-busting trinket, and Vicious Gladiator's Badge of Conquest provides a nice option when you really need burst damage at a very specific, key moment in the fight.


I've also added a link within that section to the still-ongoing (surprisingly) limerick-based discussion on Camo and stealth openers in the Damage Dealing forum. :) That thread is at http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369924668 in case you want to say hello -- in verse, of course.
Oh, I also threw this into the mix in the "Crystal Ball" section:

PVP: Will patch 4.1 make any spec more desirable?
Doutbful. The most significant change is (arguably) the buff to our stealth mechanics, and both Assassination and Subtlety usually spec into our stealth-boosting talents. For more discussion, see: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416191719

And I completely overhauled the first post, trimming the intro (exciting stuff, I know) and making the table of contents into a ginormous behemoth bent on global domination that, I fear, may well destroy us all.
Just to point out erroneous information for y'all (I am Texan y'all comes naturally :P):

The human talent "Every Man for Himself" does share cooldown with the PVP trinket. The advantage humans have is in being able to equip two beneficial trinkets. You should never see a human equipped with a PVP trinket (unless he/she doesn't know what they are doing).

Read:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=59752/every-man-for-himself
Hm. I must have phrased my comment on Reckful confusingly, because that was the point I was trying to get at with the "human racial effectively replaces the snare-busting trinket." I'll ponder and revise it to make it more clear, thankie.
The erroneous information can be found here:

RACE: Which is best?
Human is often considered the strongest in high-end PvP, thanks to the racial ability Every Man for Himself, which performs exactly like a Medallion of the Alliance (or any of the similar trinkets), but does *not* share a cooldown with the trinket, so it's like having two PvP trinkets.
Oh, *that*! Yes. Well. I'll need to fire whoever it was who wrote *that* piece of crap.

Many thanks, Blåde -- the offending section now reads: "Humans are often considered the strongest in high-end PvP, thanks to the racial ability Every Man for Himself, which performs exactly like a Vicious Gladiator's Medallion of Tenacity (or any of the similar snare-breaking trinkets). As a result, you could use that trinket slot for something that would help improve your damage instead."
I have final-freaking-ly done a sweep of this sucker to update it for 4.1, which meant a couple of additions/revisions, and the sad removal of the screed on "how to open on a hunter in Camo." Ah, so many rogue tears in that topic in the span of a few months, and now our eyes are dry.

I also snipped out the explanation of how important resilience is for a level-85 PvP rogue. I haven't done much research on this since the patch dropped, so although I know that ~32.5% -- which is about what we get in full Bloodthirsty gear, I believe -- is the point at which we'll start to see diminishing returns on resilience (by comparison to pre-4.1, at least), I haven't looked to see what that translates to in terms of how to prioritize resilience after that point. I'm inclined to believe its importance is going to highly depend on the extent to which your PvP strategy involves you getting beat on a lot, but in the absence of actual knowledge/wisdom on the issue, I figured it's better to just leave that section out for now.

Still a lot of gaps in this document. Still hope to fill those in someday. Hope springs eternal.
Very helpful thank you
EXPERTISE: Is it important for maximizing DPS?
If you are an Assassination rogue, no. If you are a Combat rogue, yes. If you are a Subtlety rogue, kinda maybe.

More detailed explanation: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2353016937#2


the thread that the link sends you to is broken
Great formatting in your guide, and helpful as always.

Requested for sticky.
You linked my pvp gem thread :}
Caera took the cake on answering that for sure
I don't want this stickied. I want this to be the default page for our forum; it should be the first thing people read after clicking "Rogue." Enough with "Should I do X or Y?" thread #109367.
So you're saying I should maybe update and add to it periodically instead of letting it sit around on its bum for two months developing bedsores?
Okie, I've updated the "PvE at Level 85" sections so they're hopefully accurate once again, though there are still some gaps in there I need to fill in at some point. Chillnkill, it was your post about one of the links being outdated that really spurred me to do this, so thank you deeply for taking the time to point that out!

For the sake of posterity, I'd like to note that I've eliminated the following Q+A from the list entirely. It's fun to look at it, though, as just one of many, many examples of how seriously and intricately we sometimes pick apart every single little issue related to how we play this fun little video game we call WoW.

VALOR POINTS: What should I buy first (and second, and third...)?
There's some healthy debate on this question. :)
  • Some say that you should get the Fluid Death trinket first, because it's one of the best trinkets you can get outside of heroic raids.
  • Others say that you should go for your two-piece tier bonus first -- particularly if you don't do Baradin Hold raids, which have a chance to drop both the Tier 11 gloves and legs.
  • General consensus is that you should *not* get the boots, cape or ring until you have both Fluid Death and the two-piece tier bonus, since none of those pieces will help you get the bonus and since there's already gear out there that's better. (See the GEAR question above for more on this.)
  • All that having been said, the choice is ultimately yours, and the actual DPS difference between those choices is small, so don't worry too much that you're making the "wrong" decision. As long as you're getting gear that's better than what you already have, you're on the right track.
  • The four-piece tier bonus is not regarded as strong enough to go out of your way to get (it might boost your DPS by a couple hundred or so at most), unless the pieces themselves are an upgrade for you anyway.
  • However, once you have the bonus, you'd generally need at least two i372 gear pieces (assuming your tier is all i359) to make giving up the bonus worthwhile.
  • Join the debate: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369679224

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