Old Wow

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I dunno, Bashiok but Archeology feels a little masochistic to me. >.<
There is one aspect of Vanilla that I did miss and that is the time it took to level. If we could have that with the current questing flow, it would be perfect. Vanilla questing was masochistic as well, what with all the running from one zone to another, to another, to another, doing two quests in each one. Some of the class quests - read: Horde Shaman Water Totem quest - made you want to dismember the person that made it.

Now I wouldn't mind actually seeing a quest not unlike the Quel'Delar series, or epic raid quests like the one for the Hunters and Quel'Serrar, and Scepter chain series. While those quests sent you back and forth and all over hell and high water, the rewards are well worth the effort you put in.

I think this is a matter of people remembering the good times and not the bad.

The game has improved on things and evolved greatly.

The warlock spell Fear in old wow had no DR except their pet's CC would cause a DR on fear.

You had to wait in trade chat to run what whoever set up the group wanted to run.

Hybrids only had one Viable raiding spec, Healing.

Warriors were mainly the only tanks.

40 main guilds were a great deal of pain and drama to manage.

Crafting profession items(except for engineering) in general imo are more useful to the non-raiders now because before it was a huge grind and I mean farming elementals for days to get the best items.

Only the top few so PvPers on the Server got the good gear while the rest had to wear greens and attempt to compete with them.

I agree with other posters the talent trees were really odd, I remember hurricane as a 31 pt talent from watching someone play........with a 1 minute or so cooldown it looked horrible.
04/08/2011 09:49 PMPosted by Glek
Only the top few so PvPers on the Server got the good gear while the rest had to wear greens and attempt to compete with them.

You mean the people who could sit in BGs 20 hours a day?
You could always try grinding "Defiler" Reputation... I've been doing pvp forever on this toon and never got Exalted yet... Not like anyone is gonna need the epic lvl 60 shoulders at 85 anyway -_-
The only thing I miss about vanilla was people and the first-time-in-an-awesome-mmo feeling. Everything else was just broken.
no it was not better and if you feel that it was then i legitimately feel bad for you. Vanilla was fun because it was fresh and new and exciting but the boss mechanics were a joke, the stupid amount of farming anything took was a joke, questing was a joke, class balance was a joke, earning enough hold for a mount was a joke. Although nostalgia is all good (to an extent) to say that you want to progress backwards is not. Keep in mind that all these new "features" were at one time or another begged and pleaded for accompanied by massive QQ waves by the very people that are now scolding them. It was ultimately the players that wanted a higher level cap, the multi-spec capabilities, hybrid classes worthy of being healers dps and/or tanks, faster ways to form groups, easier buffing mechanics and not having to stack raids based on what buffs each class brought. You say you are "hardcore" because you want to have things no one else (or very few) have. So your "self-worth" as a gamer is solely determined by what other people have? I am sorry but that kind of mentality is what ruins games. Each expansion has brought us into a new age of wow.

To say it simply "those that dont miss vanilla wow - have no heart, but those that want to go back to it - have no brains"
You want a special trophy, different from everyone else?

Well, how about a "chocolate starfish" trophy? You earned it!

There are plenty of rare-grind opportunities left in the game, still dominated by hours of play time and the mercy of RNG.

There are titles and achievements.

If you wanna be the special snowflake, don't whine and blame the world for being able to accomplish the not-so-special things you hold so dear in some rose-tinted nostalgia craze, get up and do something to make yourself different, to make yourself special.

The truth is, anyone could have accomplished the same feats, so long as they put forth the time and effort. They simply didn't.

The player base increased, more people put out more time and more effort... and all the special snowflakes became part of the drift.

Awww... life sucks.
I agree with other posters the talent trees were really odd, I remember hurricane as a 31 pt talent from watching someone play........with a 1 minute or so cooldown it looked horrible.

I'll post the 31point talents:

-Feral: reduce mana cost of shapeshifting
-Balance: Hurricane on superlong cd
-Resto: Innervate

-BM: You gain 20 health from pet attacks
-MM: Trueshot Aura
-Survival: A melee bleed (WTF?)

-Arcane: Arcane Power (same as now actually)
-Fire: Increases fire crit chance
-Frost: Ice Barrier

-Ret: Blessing of Kings
-Prot: 6 second cc
-Holy: Holy damage ability for a heals spec

-Shadow: Shadowform
-Disc: Spirit buff fo an ally
-Holy: Damage+ threat drop

-Sub: 2 free combo points
-Assasin: Increase max engergy
-Combat: cd which doubles your energy regen

-Elemental: cd doubling crit chance
-Resto: Mana Tide Totem
-Enhance: Either stormstike or agility totem

-Aff: gives you some of pets mana
-Demo: Soul link (dmg reduction)
-Destro: Conflagate

-Arms: Mortal Stike
-Fury: Bloodthirst
-Prot: cd increasing sheilds effectiveness.

Most of these are pretty lame. I mean why do so many healing specs have dps talents.

Courtesy of

I miss people actually remembering this is still a game.
My main is a Paladin and Paladins were worthless at everything except casting Blessings of people.

I like actually being useful in a group setting.
First off, been wanting to say this for a while. Bashiok's display pic is bad-ass.

On topic--You call Cata easy? Lmao, there are alot of people wiping on heroics, you can get in as a dps easier on regs because tanks love them. The only thing though that I don't find challenging about these days is getting your level 40 mount. Cataclysm does have some cool perks though, but they really need to tone down heroics. I'm a smart hunter, I avoid damage when I can and place CC when needed. And still we wipe on something that's supposed to be easy. 10k dps average too, so the group didn't suck.
I view vanilla and current encounters as trade-offs. You won bosses originally by shear rep grinding, farming, and organization of the raids. Bosses had fewer mechanics but required more prep work of the raid overall. Turn to the current encounters and there's little prep work required of the raid initially to gain access, but the boss mechanics are more plentiful and less forgiving. It's a trade-off between hours of prep work and boss mechanics. Blizzard is going for the less prep work and more boss mechanics that are less forgiving way.

The issue I keep seeing is some people love the initial prep work and hate current content because other people don't have to do it to show up and raid.

Another issue I keep seeing is as the WoW population turns over (which it does to some degree) the newer players aren't trained by Blizzard the same way as original WoW players were by encounters and this causes some issues. Questing allows for power leveling up to 85 then thrown into 5 mans then 5 man heroics with requiring very little raid skills to be acquired until that point. Cross server dungeons aren't scholarly when you won't ever see the other people again. Next the person is heroics geared and looking for raiding, but hasn't had to learn much about their class or overall raiding strategies because Blizzard makes raiding approachable by all. Unfortunately there are lots of 10 man guilds versus 25 man or the older juggernaut 40 mans and bringing inexperienced players drags down the entire raid while the learning curve has to happen. 1 new person out of 10 is more apparent than 1/25 people and hiding a new person in a 40 man isn't even apparent unless living bomb happens to be on them.

Another reason the "vanilla was better" people like it better because without cross server dungeon people took the time to teach the newer players before end game content and servers were more social. There is no teaching going on in 5 mans where you won't ever see the person again ever in the game. I know Blizzard didn't intend for cross-server dungeons to become anti-social in an mmo but it happened just that way. The only time I bother to help people with anything in a 5 man cross server dungeon is when I literally can't kill a boss without a person doing something. Overall except heroics and tbc normals I can brute force most mechanics and even some of those. If I was only playing with people on my own server I might take a bit more time to help people I'll see again and again.
04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
ok, sorry to bring this up.

No you're not. :)

04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
No more 40 man raids (yes they were hard to coordinate, but that was what made it challenging and fun and rewarding)

I think you're confusing something here. 40 mans were hard, because there was a certain level of coordination that was necessary between 40 different people. It's not that the encounter mechanics itself were hard, it's that if you had 40 people, and they weren't all doing their job, you wiped.

There is a distinct difference there.

04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
No more Class specialization... remember when you needed a dwarf priest just for Fear ward. Now any 5 paladins can do a group run and complete the instance.

I do share your feelings on this point; I loved that certain races had a unique spell. But I understand why the developers made the choice they did, and their reasoning behind it. I can accept that reason, even if it's not especially to my liking.

04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
No more ammo....this seems to be for those who couldn't remember to bring arrows or bullets...making it easy...

I wonder if you have played a Hunter for any length of time? Carrying almost an entire bag of ammo *just so you could attack* isn't really an idea of FUN. Especially since no other class had such a restriction. And no, don't say Warlocks; they didn't *have* to have soulstones to use most of their spells, only some of them. And they could replenish them in the field.

04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
Rep easier to get... remember when you would grind something for months and finally get the item...you were one in 5 on the server with the item. Now anyone if they spend two hours can get what everyone else has. I am hardcore...I want something I spend a lot of time at and no one else has.

Since when is doing the same repetitive thing over and over for months on end (see Hydraxian rep), a definition of a good time? I agree, rep is easier to get now, and it's better for it. Your point above is really two things in one. Although rep is easier to get now, you still have to do *something* to get it. You just don't have to run the same instance over and over again to do it. Instead, you can run other instances and get it. Really, they're changing the instance you have to run.

As to your second point, have you gotten the raid hard mode mounts? If you do, you'll be one of the few people on a server to get them right now.

04/08/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Poppyseeds
I guess what I am saying, is the game is much easier and it is sad to see what I would put so much time into (doing calculations, finding groups, having pride in what I did) is no longer in the game. I wonder if Blizzard will ever put challenge back into the game...maybe make an expansion that is like the old days. (maybe just one 40 man raid with uber epic gear... or one class that has a real purpose in the game again).

I would suggest that you are focusing too much on what WoW used to be. Try looking at the new content with an open mind; I think if you do, you'll find plenty of stuff there that fills your criteria (which basically seems to be summed up easily as "Hard modes.").
look. old wow and new wow are two completely differant games. I've been there, i've done that. this toon is a rank 14 Grand Marshal and out of the people i've met in this game, at work, etc etc, noone would be able to do what did to earn that title.

these days everyone is "better than thou". dedication is a joke and if you are dedicated, you're the fool. wow these days is a good example of the console gaming generation swooping in and expanding into the PC market.

wow was originally seperated into two, three endgame contents, almost.for the casuals, you had your dungeon 1 and 2 sets. for people who loved pvp, like myself, you had the GM/ HWL grind. despite this "virtual" property, when you got these things, you had alot of pride behind them. when i hit the final rank, you guys couldn't beleive how happy and proud i was to have done it. and i could care less what anyone else has to say about it, because it was my accomplishment.

and of course the last endgame content was the fantastic raiding. when guild pride was unfathomably awesome. when guilds like relentless, Death and taxes, drama, etc all had these crazy rivalries and you'd see 120 people + trying to kill Lethon and other world dragon spawns. when you'd all ride out to blackrock mountain and you and your guild would free-for-all in from of MC horde versus alliance. and some of these memories even drifted into BC, and back THEN i complained about how the game was becoming.

why am i playing now? well, i don't know. i resubbed because i grew so attached to my charactor during the first couple of years and that stuff lingers. back then the game was, to me, so great, so unforgettable that despite how much i absolutely loathe this game, i come back to it, hoping and hoping, looking for chances and ways to like it again.

making the game "accessable" these days means dumbing it down to where the most terrible of terrible people can reap the "rewards". thats it. the new community is completely obsessed with getting things done by riding the coattails of others.

the way i see it, and i dont understand why it would be this way, is that most people care only about the rewards and not the reason for them. i talked to someone the other night and they complained about the "battleground grind". without even mentioning this toon and what a real battleground grind was, i asked why they thought it needed to be nerfed. they didn't pvp, they didn't arena, they didn't even have RBG guilds on their server.

why do they need everything handed to them? his reply was "because in case i want to pvp i don't want to get roflstomped". i didn't reply to his comment despite knowing that getting free gear isn't going to stop him from ssucking at pvp, i did however reply with the fact that i finished my pvp set literally a week after resubbing, leveling from 80-85 and playing on the new ALL BATTLEGOUP MERGED ALLIANCE (freaking, THANKS BLIZZ, for destroying the only decent BG for alliance by merging every tard group together) which ally lost 80% of games. and this guy was horde and after playing on my first horde alt in 7 years, i found that they win so damn much its practically a sin how GD easy it is.

so... OP.. the community has changed. this game will never be the same. noone cares, noone will agree, and to be honest most people will think you're actually a moron for missing the game you can't even go back to playing because it doesn't exist anymore. its a shame, but thats internet culture these days. however, when TOR comes out, you might definantly want to check it out. i certainly have a feeling that TOR is going to donkey punch the crap out of bliz, and since this player base are only fairweather players, blizzard is going to feel it for sure.
ok, sorry to bring this up.

No more 40 man raids (yes they were hard to coordinate, but that was what made it challenging and fun and rewarding)

I really feel I need to say something here....

I've raided since 2005.....did almost all of the classic content as a dwarf hunter, I have the experience, and I DO remember what level 60 raiding was like, and it was NOT difficult, at all, everything was a complete face roll, 10 idiots got carried in raids, rotations were much less complex, boss abilities were not even a 10th of what they were today, coordination and execution have not been more imperative to success in raiding than any other teir in wow then it is now IN MY OPINION.

Overall at level 60 classes were a lot more simple were way easier to master, raids were much more forgiving also.

Perfect example: One person dies in a 10man thats 10% of the raid dying, takes 4 people to equate that in a 40man, and even then with 36 people its a barely noticeable difference where-as the 1 person in a 10man is almost always a wipe, especially if its in the begging of the attempt.
People seem to throw the word "easy" around when speaking of post-BC WoW, and it really doesn't make much sense to me. WoW was never a wholly difficult game, nor was it a wholly easy game. The easy/hard argument really just isn't valid as there are some incredibly difficult things to achieve in the game these days, just like there were in the past. The only problem with them, as opposed to Pre-Wrath, is that they are incredibly trivialized and created in such a way that is linear, calculated and just downright uninspiring.

I think the entire idea of what makes a good role-playing game is having a static and unique world that people can connect to and interact with. Details and small, thoughtful things play an incredibly important role in creating this type of atmosphere, such as conversations NPCS have amongst themselves, explorable buildings and cities that have a living feel to them and making sure that everything within the world has a purpose and a place within the story that the players are acting out; even if they have no bearing whatsoever on a characters progression. None of these things require anything of the player. Individual paths didn't feel scripted back then. Sure, there were things you could do to progress your character, but I personally never felt like i was losing out by wanting to go randomly explore a particular zone or PvP in some remote location. The mechanics that I feel drove WoW back then were fun and spontaneous, unexpected tomfoolery.

In BC, Illidian was Illidan. Kil'Jaeden was Kil'Jaeden. We all knew the place they had within the world and the role they played within the game. People knew they were hard dudes, and that it took more than your average joes to defeat them. That was fine. I never sat foot in BT and i was cool with that because I never put myself in a position to run it. I also had a ton of fun having never even seen it. I always felt that if I really wanted to down Illidan or Kil'jaeden, I could put myself in a position to do so. But, they were beyond me, and I was happy to let the more dedicated carry the honor of killing them quickly. Making two different versions of bosses killed the whole thought of what guys like Illidan and such represented within the game world. Arthas should have just been Arthas. Everyone knows who he was, what he did and how powerful he was. It should have been left at that. The people who really wanted to down him would have taken the appropriate measures to do so, and the people who weren't up for the challenge never set foot in front of him and never carried the pride of having killed The one and only Lich King instead of heroic-mode boss guy #43129.

It wasn't imperative to my personal enjoyment that I complete all raid content. Acting goofy inside of Kara and picking fights outside of Kara were probably the epitome of fun I ever had in this game. World PvP was awesome and now it is nearly non-existent. Just you and some other dudes out in the middle of some fantastical world duking it out however and wherever you wanted for no other reason but to have some fun. There was no reward other than killing the other player. If you wanted to spend your whole day kiting one another from one end of EK to the other, you could do that. Now that rewards have taken the place of the reward of spontaneous, unexpected fun, even the joy of getting the upper hand on another player has been reduced to nearly nothing. Get in, get my points as easily as possible and get out ASAP.

I just feel as though the point the game is at right now is almost arcadish in a lot of ways, which feels and seems really out of place in a role-playing game. The feeling of adventure is gone, and Azeroth as a whole feels like a decoration on top of a "queue and play" type of gaming system. Azeroth really doesn't even need to exist anymore. Outside of farming, there is little to no reason to even visit any other areas beside the capitals that, by the way, you are forced to spend most of your time due to certain things being non-existent in other cities. I liked the more open-sandbox feeling of BC, not the "let's rush and make everything super-fast and accessible so we can continue on with our incessant carrot chasing" mentality that has become WoW.

Just some random, early-morning, can't sleep thoughts.
blah blah blah..... blah blah blah.

The only thing that made it awesome was the 1st time experience of WoW. Like any drug though, no matter how much you use/abuse after that you will never get that original high again.

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