Old Wow

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I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).


You just gave me two extremely evil ideas for my DnD campaign.
Thank you Bashiok, thank you. I'll write when I achieve a TPK thanks to you. ;)
I will never miss vanilla wow.. never. 6 years ago it was flawed and what i consider wow in its baby stages. been there done that. i am content with things now. yes there could be more improvments, but if you want your challenges then stop dwelling in the past and find some in the present. there are plenty. wow is currently in what i call its near teen stages. i believ when this game finaly matures it will be trully epic, but for now you gotta endure the growing pains that come with it.


and quite honestly if you want 60ish challenges feel free to turn off xp and gather 40 like minded people and have at rags . hes still there and waiting.

again i thank blizz of evolving the game, where as games like eq never evolved the game they just pilled on content till they killed themselves. Flawed flawed flawed
Can I do naxx too (@60)?
A quick reminder, tedious and difficult are not the same thing, you think the game is EASIER but really it is just less tedious, annoying, and time consuming.
People cry when they group with "Bad players", but really these people just don't know how to play. Then people cry when the game gets easier so those people can learn. lol pick an opinion, you can't just magically want everyone to be as super amazing as you are.
You know, there's a bit of an irony here. Sometimes what I don't like about WoW is the sheer amount of polish. Other games I can manipulate, exploit, bend to my will. And they're poorly balanced to where I need to do that. It's me versus the game, and I need to bring my abilities to bear to leave my mark.

I'm not sure what the take away from that is. I'm sure a lot of you know what I'm talking about, though. On that note I'm going to go play Minecraft.
WoW 2007-2008 > All
Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off.


And this is why blizzard is now giving tanks an extra shot at the mounts and pets I spent months grinding for.

and I wouldn't mind having my quiver back if it didn't take up a bag slot.
Gaming masochism? What does that blue guy know about gaming masochism? I bet HE doesn't play a warlock in PvP (other than 3vs3 sandbox or rated BGs, where you get carried by your buddies). None of the developers are, that much has become painfully clear over the past months. I on the other hand still do. Less and less every day though. And it involves much more masochism than "old wow" altogether could possibly have ever had.

I once loved this game, but now I'm about ready to run over my authenticator with my car.


Oh plz!!!QQ Moar!!
04/09/2011 10:12 AMPosted by Snarls
A quick reminder, tedious and difficult are not the same thing, you think the game is EASIER but really it is just less tedious, annoying, and time consuming.


^
This. I played the game starting the middle of BC and I never felt the game was too easy or too hard. Parts of it were tedious yes but blizzard constantly improves on those parts. Much of this game 's difficulty comes in interaction with other players if you have a good guild/group the game is easier. It you have a bad guild/group the game is harder. All of the people complaining the game is too easy now were probably the same ones that were complaining that Cata heroics were too hard in the beginning. A lot of it has to do with what I can "game nostalgia" too. People have fond memories for playing the original game and shut out any changes because they feel uncomfortable with them and they conflict with their fond memories of the original game.
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


I have to chime in and say, this is one of the best Blue responses I've seen in awhile.
Ok I think I need to clarify my post a bit -

In Vanilla wow the encounters were incredibly easy, the challenge came in getting 40 people (25 - 30 of which knew what they were doing class wise) and just telling them not to stand in a certain spot, or run out when they would explode, or kill the adds that spawned. Naturally this was wow in easy mode but back then, we didn't have addons like boss mods to hold our hands and flash a warning across the screen telling us what to do. I swear if blizzard implemented a code which dis-allows the use of Bigwigs and Boss Mods, most guilds would fall apart because they would actually have to think

Now to clarify the pre-school everyone gets a trophy thing. I remember growing up where if you actually did well, you actually got rewarded. In Little League when we won the big game our team got a trophy and a trip to KFC to celebrate. Now my little brother plays little league and actually tries and their team wins, they get the same reward, but the other team, the one who didn't do well, the one who didnt even try (one kid let the ball land right next to him in left field and it took the kid from right field to pick it up and thow it back in after all 3 kids scored) got the same treatment, trophy and kfc trip. I understand not being mean to kids, but where is the incentive to even try?

I understand World of Warcraft is a game and a buisness but its a MMORPG, there are supposed to be elements to cater to ALL the RPG player demographics. Heroic Dungeons and raids are supposed to be there to cater to us who enjoy the punishment and sense of accomplishment we get when we complete it. Its supposed to be there for us masochists who actually found it fun grinding for weeks on end to get our Hydroxian Warlords rep to exaulted. Those of us who wiped 9 billion times on C'thun before his nerf just because we enjoyed the challenge. If you keep making content more and more and more accessible to the "Herp Derp Casual" demographic, your gonna be like Nintendo who said "Screw you loyal fans, your no longer my target audience....now who wants a free sparkle pony!"

This issue hits me the most because of this - People are too used to things being handed to them on a silver plate. For example, I was forced to drop 50 dollars to Faction Change and Realm Transfrer to be able to continue raiding because people would show up for our farm bosses. You know, Heroic Halfus, Heroic Magmaw, and Heroic Chimeron. Then we would wipe to our Progression bosses for the night, Heroic Conclave, Heroic Theralion and Valiona, Heroic Maloriak, etc, and then we get some of these bosses to about 10 - 6% hp and wipe, and believe we can down them! woot! next day....only 13 out of our 25 players show up and we have call the raid until monday when they show up again to do normal mode cleanups, and once we said "supprise, we're doing heroic modes!" suddenly 9 family emergencies came up and we finished the week on 10 man normals. If blizzard keeps up with the idea "things will become way way easier in time, just wait until we dumb it down for you" people are gonna keep doing this.

I'm all for blizzard catering things for the casual audience. I mean, isnt that what normal mode raiding is for now? However I'm feeling the sting of the nerf bat in the Heroic Mode raids which are supposed to be for the hard core masochistic grind fest crowd being dummed down to the casual demographic and it caused half the best player i knew to go casual and just say "its no longer challengeing....i got my 13/13 now so...i guess i'll wait for firelands to come out to just do the new stuff before its nerfed to the ground"
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


Speaking from experience.. and by experience I mean someone who has been a blizzard supporter since well... long before you were known as blizzard.

The game has become increasingly EASY. To the point.. I grew tired of my recent guild carrying several people in 25 man content and downing it while we carried atleast 3 individuals.

Raiding has went from 40 man carrying a few people, to 25 man was decently hard for most of BC and really no slack for carrying people.. To nerfed BC to allow carrying people.. to WOLK which well.. was the most lack luster failest expac's blizzard has ever released... I mean.. going in and one shotting naxx bosses in questing stuff... its fun right?.... progression = poof. ICC out for way to long.. to the point pie chart's alt guild was one of the top guilds on our server.

To now Cata... Where we recycle a vast large amount and quantity of old content closed off to people.. to now reopened... rehashed and same crap just a few different things... And now.. 25 mans can carry atleast 3-5 people... where we allow 1-2 people to screw up in 10 man.

I also speak from experience of seeing the player pool go vastly down. There is little or no common sense left to use in this game.... oh... green slime under me.. healer will keep me up.. if not I'll QQ. A vote kicking system which has many many flaws. A dungeon que system which is a joke. A pvp system and que system which is a joke.. I like sitting in a que for an hour to lose 1 bg.... no really.. I do.. I also like sitting in 30-45 minute ques for dpsing my daily heroic.

I also like the fact that I have a job.. daily. With guild exp. Someone has to get it done right? And the mentality of everyone on guild exp isn't the greatest. Though saddly I wish everyone was on the same page as me.. of wanting to hit the guild cap daily... and Have me NOT at 120 million guild exp.. followed by someone @ 1/2 my guild exp... And yet we still didn't hit the cap (another reason).

This game in its current state.. has alot of flaws. Let alone the promise of blizzard was to not have raid content out like ICC was. Well here we are... its april. We get 2 dungeons rehashed from its previous glory.. a slap in the face to us "old timers". But atleast its something new to the people out there who well.... need the gear for maybe themselves.. or their alts?

As for me... Well I've cancelled this account. Plan to play on my other one for well.. till I burn out over there in a 13/13 guild... cause firelands from the looks of it.. won't be out till blizzcon. Be a miracle if it saw release during the summer.

So.... no this isn't a trolling post... this is me stating my opinion to your opinion on someone else's opinion.

In all honesty... Minecraft right now is more fun then wow is. Social environment is gone. The challenge is gone... and well... now its just a daily job.. where as I'd rather work an actual job to get me somewhere further IRL... then in a game where in... about 2 years... everything you've worked on will be recycled.. or thrown away.

/signed former blizzard supporter, closed beta wow player, a player who never gives up till quit on, and feels quit on by blizzard. Oh and.. your support team sucks both email wise.. and phone wise. That is all
yeh guys .. lets get back to old wow:

- that wow where only warriors could tank ..
- that wow where paladins and druids were forced to heal (lolret, lolprot, lolferal, oomkin)
- that wow where farming rep took weeks killing the same furbolgs, hours a day (that is extremelly hard, complex and fun)
- that wow where in a 40 man raid, healers had addons that would heal for them

i mean .. the game was so much better .. so much this .. so much ....

go to hell ¬¬

you dont want a harder/better game .. you want a game where you get more rewarded for playing 16h straight while other people go to work/sleep.


THIS.

Anyone in denial about vanilla needs to remember this.
I have mixed feelings about all of this. I would like to put forward one option that was prevalent in FFXI:

Level capped instances. Basically, the game de-levels you when you enter an instance. There'd be a few logistical issues with this in WoW. The ones I can think of include: Do you get some kind of temporary spec? Is gear capped? Is gear reduced by a flat percentage?

Doing this would allow people who really want to raid old instances the opportunity to do so. The mechanics of the classes would be different, but then in vanilla WoW they were constantly changing.

This would keep almost all content relevant. Heck, you could make the argument that a level capped raid run should be a way to get some level 85 gear. It would vastly expand the options for what to do in the game (though I have more than enough raiding content available, personally).

The in-world changes are harder to reconcile.

I understand players simply wanting the option. Take Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic 1 was a good game, but Sonic 2 is by every metric a better, more balanced experience. It's a toss up as to which I'll play if I'm feeling nostalgic. I'd be upset if someone took away Sonic 1 and said "No, you need to play the better one." My response would be, "It's not as good, but I really like that laval level's music!"

The difference here is that my ability to play Sonic 1 doesn't require a fleet of programmers to keep a server running. SEGA doesn't have a legion of fans screaming about where developer resourcers are being allocated.

Maybe someday Blizzard should consider semi-private servers. You'd still need a subscription and Blizzard staff would deal with conflic resolutions but players would have a greater impact on the world. I'm sure any Blizzard employee reading this finds the notion extreme.

I'm from an older gaming generation where we were left to our own resources when it came to servers. It was a harsher world for people who couldn't tell what a "good" server was so I don't suggest we should return to that system entierly. I'm just throwing out options.
well said. I am sure there are a lot of people that remember the old MC days - back when we didn't even have DBM. It was our tanks jumping up and down - no raid frames NOTHING.
Honestly bliz - your losing a lot of your old school gamers :

A- Class homogenization. doing this really cripples the class dedication. When people dont' dedicate themselves to a specific class. More importantly, giving other classes key mechanics that make them unique, removes them entirely from the game. If the guild can't seem to find a specific class, their are 100's are recruitment forums and options for that guild. This change has "destroyed" what many people consider the key element in WOW. By comparison, your taking the "job" of a certain, well talented player - say a shaman and passing it along to all - that shaman no longer has a job and is forced to sit the bench. Feels the same as out sourcing a your job to a distant country.

B- the 40 man raid. OK well its a debate that several 1000 people have had. In the beginning, wow was a struggle. DKP was lame and yes it was a GRIND to get dark iron. To get materials for the gear and have the ordination to complete epic quests. This "GRIND" as many have stated, is the reason why people enjoyed and continue to enjoy the wow gaming experience. Providing an out with 10 / 25 mans, let alone giving the same gear in both raids- continues to dwindle the hope of an epic experience. I pray and hope some day we can see another 40 raid again. NOT TO MENTION - AQ OPENING WAS AN AMAZING EVENT!!! It made the kills beyond memorable and proved to many how leet there guild was. As I recall, during mc / bwl days, GM's would sit and watch top end guilds while they bested their content. This involvement, while still here, just is not the same.

C- The Lack of pvp specific talents is again destroying the ideal that players choose their destiny. Those talents severed several purposes both in PVE and PVP -

In summation -
Blizzard, as a beta tester, back when their was only a orc warlock lvl1 that had just a hut in a distant land, no skills or talents, I implore you - please bring back "ANY/SOME" difficultly - restore the uniquness of shaman and other classes alike - aka bloodlust, and if anything bring back our 40 man raids - we miss the MT EVEREST wow - it feels more like a gentle knoll at this point.

Sincerely
Urmmom
Well then Mr. blue poster you are taking the game in the wrong direction now. My friends and I can not access raids in Cata - I thought the intent was to make the game MORE accessible and not LESS? I guess I'm confused. I want to access all the game has to offer but I have to wait 1-2 expansions later to see all the content.
Every time I read one of these sorta posts, I think of the movie Pleasantville (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120789/).

It's like a harking back to this idealised memory of the past - back in vanilla folks greeted their neighbours with a cheery wave & mr rogers led our raids with style and panache.

They forget things like the 20 we-need-warm-bodies-who-don't-drool-(much) raiders they required, to go with the 20 actual competent ones. Based off my experience with "I was good in Vanilla" raiders, many/most of them probably were those warm bodies tbh - they've often been amongst the worst at handling the current bosses. Imagine what Arion's Lightning Rod ability would've been like with vanilla raiders <shudder>. Quite likely its just that the vanilla players who can handle current content don't hark back to their glory days of being carried through AQ/Naxx.

It's human nature for pain to fade & happy memories to become more prominent. Life would be horrible if the pain of failed romances, friend/family deaths & all the other heartbreaks stayed fresh forever.

Novelty/mystery is also wonderful & now that most of us have been playing wow for *at least* 2 years it can't help but lose some novelty/mystery.

But jeez.. if you have to indulge your nostalgia, at least be self-aware that you're indulging in rose-coloured-glasses thinking.

edit: back in vanilla my spelling & grammar was better too.

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