PvE HPally Theorycrafting Pt.2

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Yeah pretty much what everyone else says about IJ/EJ.

Regarding gemming. I'm pretty sure I'm doing it wrong. Gemming for socket bonuses was something I thought was useful, back when I started doing the math a few months ago. My recent work suggests trading 10 int for at least 30 spirit, haste or crit. Do not trade for mastery.

If you're curious, I can get into the math a bit more closely, but a 10:30 tradeoff should be a pretty good guideline. I don't believe a 10:20 tradeoff is worth it. If you have additional questions, feel free to ask, since this is a somewhat esoteric subject when you get into the nitty gritty details.

This is speculative for 4.2, but given that crit at least is better in 4.2 than 4.1, I'm doing it wrong. I haven't gotten around to swapping my gems yet.

Ya, I thought I had read a post of yours about this somewhere, which is why I asked :) thanks for clearing it up!

Edit for bad English
I agree with Lylthe about spirit losing value. I think spirit will actually be our worst stat, you can get more overall healing out of a throughput stat than with spirit. This is because spirit scales inversely with itself. The value of spirit is that it allows you to use a more mana-inefficient spell selection, but the more inefficient you are, the less healing you can get per point of additional spirit gained. (since all spirit does is give you more mana to work with) So eventually the throughput stats will catch up to and surpass spirit in overall effectiveness. Seems like 4.2 is when that will happen, especially with the nerfs to our spell costs.
This should be accurate regarding K factors, SP Coefficients and whatnot. There are some rounding errors, but it should be good enough for initial calculations. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me know if I've made any errors.

Holy Shock
Base Avg - 2738
SP Coeff - 0.269
Mana - 1639
K - 1.675 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL + 0.3 Crusade)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction
6 sec CD

Holy Light
Base Avg - 4400
SP Coeff - 0.432
Mana - 2810
K - 1.3287 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction

Divine Light
Base Avg - 11733
SP Coeff - 1.153
Mana - 8197
K - 1.3287 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction

Flash of Light
Base Avg - 7328
SP Coeff - 0.863
Mana - 7260
K - 1.3287 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction

Base Avg - 640
SP Coeff - 0.132
K - 1.3287 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction

Base Avg - 2038
SP Coeff - 0.209
K - 1.7909 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL+0.1WoG Glyph)*1.3 WitL WoG*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction
Here's how to include the attack power portion
WoG Heal/HP = (2038 + 0.209*SP)*K + 0.19799*AP

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! Word of Glory scales by a multiplicative 30% instead of additive.

Base Avg - 683
SP Coeff - 0.0678
Mana - 7260
K - 1.3287 = (1+0.05 SoI + 0.1 WitL)*1.06 Divinity*1.09 Conviction
20 sec CD

I am NOT confident about the HR numbers. There are some things that aren't quite right, but I seem to be within 5% so I'm letting it slide.
This needs some work, but I'm publishing it anyways for an initial look. Spirit is looking to be a bad stat compared to everything else. With this in mind, I'm hoping to determine an acceptable spirit plateau.

I define an acceptable spirit plateau to be sufficient spirit to sustain an "efficient" rotation indefinitely. This isn't a perfectly repeatable cycle, nor is it really ideal, but it's close enough for me to get started. The cycle is:

Assume: 25% Total Haste
HS Judge HL HL HS HL HL HL HS WoG Judge HL Thumb Twiddle
1.2 1.5 2 2 1.2 2 2 2 1.2 1.2 1.5 2 2.2
1.2 2.7 4.7 6.7 7.9 9.9 11.9 13.9 15.1 16.3 17.8 19.8 22

I threw in a "thumb twiddle" as wasted time due to lag, human reflexes, etc. I assume Judgement is a melee attack so uses a full GCD instead of a shortened one. I also assume we're not using HS perfectly on CD (which I find never happens) neither do I use Judgement perfectly on CD (which I also find never happens).

Row 2 is the individual time that each ability consumes. Row 3 is the cumulative time. So this is a 22 second cycle.

This has 3 HS, 2 Judgements, 7 HL, and 1 WoG. This costs 29271 total mana and gains 7027 mana for a net 1011.13 mana per SECOND, NOT FIVE.

Assuming full raid buffs, and a 120k mana pool, I'm expecting the following mana regen
Passive Regen (mpSECOND)
Base (As if u had 0 spirit you'd get this much) - 234.22
BoM - 65.2
Replen - 120
Divine Plea used on CD and glyphed - 180
Mana Tide Totem used on CD and a shaman with 2500 spirit - 43

This would require ~2900 spirit to be mana neutral, or repeatedly to infinity. The nerf to mana tide totem and increased mana costs shifts this number up considerably from 4.1 numbers. Doubling the returns on MTT would drop this spirit down to ~2600 and I'm estimating the 4.1 equivalent would be ~2200 spirit.

EDIT: Substituting all HL for DL and keeping everything else the same would allow for ~70 seconds until OOM.
06/29/2011 01:14 PMPosted by Chilidog
Does'nt the loss of Eternal Glory hurt in the long run over having the increased movement speed?

Depends on how much you use WoG. Pretty much a judgement call.

06/29/2011 01:14 PMPosted by Chilidog
This needs to be stickied.

Rofl. The main thread is stickied. This thread is around mostly so I can throw a bunch of disorganized stuff so people can't claim I'm pulling stuff out of my butt.
Ok, so I've been looking at stat weighting, specifically with regards to gemming more closely.

The easiest case is the comparison of crit vs. mastery. First, I'm going to ignore conviction, because int alone almost will guarantee you have it up. Crit and mastery basically do the same thing. You "heal" for more. 10 mastery should give 0.0837% shielding and crit gives 0.0558% additional throughput.

Now we need to consider the deprecation factors involved. In 4.1, we say mastery only work at 0.3 effectiveness. Only 0.5 heals were eligible for mastery and of those shields 0.6 were consumed. Multiply for 0.3. With 4.2, the 0.5 factor will not have improved, or actually gotten worse, since HR will be a bigger chunk of our healing. The 0.6 consumption rate will probably go up, but it's unlikely to reach 1.

Crit is subject to overhealing. I've found 20% overheal is pretty much unavoidable. Even in Cataclysm, 50% overheal is not underheard of even if not optimal. So crit will provide 0.04464% throughput and mastery AT BEST 0.04185% throughput. Crit therefore is better than mastery.

In comparing crit vs. int, from throughput ONLY, int beats crit slightly. Using my paladin, who is in full 359 gear going into Firelands, 10 int fully raid buffed (10% SP, 5% BoK, 5% armor mastery) gives a 0.0653% throughput bonus, except for FoL and LoD, which have 0.0718% and 0.916% bonus's respectively. Crit relatively, gives 0.0558%. Crit and Int are both subject to the same deprecation, overheal, so I ignore it for comparative purposes. If in heroic gear we can reach ~11k+ spell power, crit will beat int for throughput.

From a throughput stand point of view, 10 crit matches ~8.547 int. So how much bonus crit would you need to make it worth sacrificing int? So to meet the throughput bonus of 10 int, it would take 12.906 crit rating. Int also provides 165.375 mana, 1.128 spirit based mp5, and 0.827 mp5 from replenishment and 1.24 mp5 from divine plea on CD. Over a 7 minute fight, that's 418.85 mana, or roughly 8.026 spirit. Now things start getting fubar. Assuming HL/DL spam and a ratio of 1:1, then using crit to downgrade some DL to HL, then 8 spirit, if we consider that HL/DL spam will only take 60% of your heal time, (blah blah blah assumptions that would give you a headache), then trading 10 int for 20 crit, is pretty much exactly on the border for worth it. For straight throughput, without considering sustainability, it IS worth the trade.

10 haste already beats 10 int for raw HPS. So if raw throughput is a problem, prioritize haste. Gem it, reforge it, go to town. But again, IF THROUGHPUT IS A PROBLEM. Even downgrading DL->HL, haste performs very poorly when trying to gear for sustainability. No surprise.

Spirit sucks. It always did, but with the buffs to everything else, we're starting to see it more. In full 359 gear, 1 spirit ~ 0.63 in combat mp5. When upgrading HL->DL, spirit is a very poor throughput option. 10 spirit, if keeping net mp5 constant and substituting DL in for HL, provides the equivalent boost of 5.16 crit or 3.688 haste. Over a 7 minute fight, 10 int provides the same longevity as 8 spirit WITHOUT considering int's throughput bonuses. Gemming for spirit is a bad idea relative to int. I also found that in a straight HL/DL spam situation, crit performs better than spirit. However, that analysis was flawed in that I didn't consider that crit overheals (assume 20%) and that HL/DL spam is likely only going to cover ~60% of your cast times, then crit's "mana bonus" drops to just below spirit. So spirit is still king of longevity, just not by much.

So stat weighting is still:

Spirit to comfort
Haste to comfort

"To comfort" is really fuzzy. This is likely going to get me into trouble, but I'd say ~2900 spirit is a good level. That's sufficient for indefinite (as in until the end of time) HL/HS spam. I'd say 1182 for the 13th HR tick and a 2 sec DL is a minimum, but your mileage may vary. Going above/below that can be justified by your own play style. The next cap is at 2301 and is less critical to hit.

General Gearing
Spirit to comfort
Haste to comfort

Trade int for haste if throughput is a problem. Otherwise trade for crit.

When trading for crit:
Trade 10 int for 30 crit when starting Firelands
Trade 10 int for 20 crit when in mostly Firelands gear

When trading for haste:
Trade 10 int for 20 haste

Do NOT trade int for mastery.

Do NOT trade int for spirit.

TL/DR: Only gem for int bonuses with yellow gems with haste or crit.
Here's some updated numbers on mastery deprecation. This isn't the greatest example, since I'm overhealing too much, and I'm basically doing nothing but spamming on the tank, but it's not looking too bad for mastery. It's not up to par with crit, but it's something.


These are a bunch of Shannox wipes.

Mastery eligibility 50%
Mastery usage 99% <- I'm impressed by just how damn high this is. Subject to review though as I raid heal more instaed of tank spam.

That said, my math has considered mastery with a deprecation factor of 0.5 instead of 0.3. Crit's still winning.
Mastery eligibility 50%
Mastery usage 99% <- I'm impressed by just how damn high this is. Subject to review though as I raid heal more instaed of tank spam.

That said, my math has considered mastery with a deprecation factor of 0.5 instead of 0.3. Crit's still winning.

That should be a well duh XD.
The mastery will always be used becase the munching is gone. It is just the eligibility bit
Thanks for posting your spreadsheet. It looks like the overhealing continues to stack mastery according to what I see there- is this correct, and how, if at all, does this fact affect our attitude to overhealing? Also, if my interpretation is correct, has mastery always worked off of overhealing?

06/30/2011 05:10 AMPosted by Ronmejico
, has mastery always worked off of overhealing?

Yes. Unless there's an unlisted fix that's causing some of the abnormalities listed below.

New logs with kills.

Mastery Eligibility - 44.05%
Used Shields - 75.1%

Beth'tilac (web healer)
Mastery Eligibility - 36.8%
Used Shields - 121%

Lord Rhyolith
Mastery Eligibility -32%
Used Shields - 138.7%

So yeah... something's wrong with my logging. I'll need to get back to people on this one.

Also, a single WoG heal beats LoD by a factor of 3.06. This scales down as spell power goes up, but doesn't really cross significantly below 3.0 until we reach 12k spell power. So for now, use LoD for 4+. As usual, try to avoid healing the beacon, but if the beacon needs heals, USE WOG, NOT LOD. This is because of the slight mastery boost and for eternal glory.
Sticky updated.

Highlights for 4.2
Use LoD at 4+ targets instead of 3+.

If beacon and ONLY beacon requires healing, WoG is better than LoD, even with 6 targets transfering. This is subject to change in heroic gear, but with mastery and Eternal Glory, probably not.

Despite changes to mastery and crit, stat weighting remains the same. After considering some convoluted math, when gemming, trade 10 int for 20 haste, 10 int for 20 spirit.

If you're good on haste, trade 10 int for 30 crit while in normal mode gear. Once you start getting heroic gear, trade 10 int for 20 crit.
I don't post here much but I wanted to thank you, Lylthe. Really interesting stuff here and I'm going to spend some time combing through it to get my holy set all geared and ready for firelands raids.

I have a question though:

What do you think would be a good "comfort" zone for Haste & Spirit? I always see "haste to comfort" on your posts but I'm not sure if there is a round-a-bout number for comfort. Thanks. :-)

edit: well.. I found your sticky which answered my questions. Sorry for being a tard.
There is no set number outside of what you find comfortable. Same with spirit.

Every time I give out a number, someone starts whining about how they specifically can do great w/ a different number despite all my disclaimers.

That said, I'd recommend 774 min haste, and 2.4k min spirit to start raiding. I personally (ME PERSONALLY ONLY) like my haste too much to stop stacking it. However, beyond 2.9k spirit I'm going to start stacking crit and haste.

At a certain level of int and sustained DL spam, crit starts beating spirit for regen, but it requires a level of int we won't be seeing for a while.
So here are some thoughts about 25 man Firelands raiding. This may not apply to 10 man content that I haven't seen. This is also all heresay and personal anecdote.

After starting to see some of Firelands content, I'm afraid that WotLK style spam is starting to become prevalent again. Just looking at my own guild's logs, 50% overheal is not unusual. Even if I'm careful, it's pretty hard for me to drop that below 40%.

Tanks are dropping pretty quickly. It's not getting to WotLK level bad, but with another 1-2 tiers of content, I can see it getting there. It feels like Blizzard's vision of Cataclysm healing is going to go by the wayside soon.

I know they want us to start switching up to DL and FoL more, but I don't see us getting enough int/spirit to be able to sustain that kind of spam. Spirit doesn't look like it's scaling at the same rate as haste and crit.

Should we return to WotLK type healing, it may become prudent to start stacking haste and mastery (once a certain level of spirit is hit), but that causes problems with beacon. Anyways, this is all speculation. If things start to change more in the future, I'll post some numbers to settle things one way or another.
You know that whole thing about "haste to comfort"?

After seeing tanks die in 1-2 GCD's in Firelands, "haste to comfort" is now stack haste until it comes out the wazoo.
You know that whole thing about "haste to comfort"?

After seeing tanks die in 1-2 GCD's in Firelands, "haste to comfort" is now stack haste until it comes out the wazoo.

Great stuff as usual Lylthe. But this makes me question you :P

Tanks taking damage spikes that high and you'd rather heal it up faster than reduce the size of the hits? I think we both know what I am talking about here...
Sorry Rabel, but Crit is definitely better than mastery. If I advocated stacking besides haste, it would be crit.

And neither crit nor mastery save my tank when a hatchling enrages and kills the tank in the 2 GCD it takes me to drop HoSac on that tank, and the tank dies before FoL lands.

EDIT: Here are the specific situations I'm running into where my tanks are eating deaths in a few GCD's.

MT is eating extra dmg from Arching Slash. Good chance this is a bug, but it's still rough when my tank is eating 120k strikes and I don't know when they're coming.

Face Rage. I still need to heal through a few GCD's of this.

Healing during up-down transitions.

Decimation Blade.


Majordomo Staghelm
This is more the raid trying to push scorpion stacks and me wanting more ticks on HR.

As usual, there are ways to compensate for these abilities without straight stat stacking, and our raid does deal with them. Sometimes it's pre-emptive spam (Blizzard lied when they said they were taking this away) of FoL, CD usage, or other stuff, but they do make me wish I had more haste. Your mileage may vary however.

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