PvE HPally Theorycrafting Pt.2

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im a haste/spirit kind of guy

i havnt gotten to raiding firelands yet unfortunately, and i think i do alright in the older content
im a little uncertain if i need more spirit or not at this point

and also what type of strategy i should be employing in the future with regards to 1 or 2 tank fights
ie. it doesnt seem as feasible to be the only tank healer with having to use less of our big heals and taking advantage of holy light transfering

would our role on 1 tank fights be to split the role of tank healing between us and another healer, beacon on the tank, spot healing the raid

So with zero yellow sockets outside of Sinestra's cloak, I'd throw 1 Reckless Ember Topaz into your relic and 1 into a red slot oddly enough.

Wouldn't throwing one into the belt buckle make more sense than to burn a red socket elsewhere?

i agree

and i havnt looked at the math on our 4pc yet either
would be interesting to figure it out
just some quick notes on 4pc

trying to keep holy light at a 2:1 ratio with DL, maybe slightly less, and hardly using FoL at all
HL = 15k, DL = 30k (im just pulling rough averages from some recount numbers from today)

about 2k every 2 seconds, probably closer to 5 with use of our other spells
assuming our target is always within 8yrds of another injured person, possible for stacking phases but not always practical

seems kind of weak?
07/06/2011 02:03 AMPosted by Chilidog
We switched back to 10 man raiding this week after a weak turn out from our already shaky attendance/performance 25 man raid line up and looking at your rough estimates, the aoe factor of the 4pc doesn't looks near as desirable as it did previously.

its obviously pretty difficult to quantify, since depending on the fight it could swing wildy to both its extremes of usefulness and healing done

basically 1 healing atramedes tonight for kicks i have 12 Hls and 8 DLs as well as 2 FoLs

12 x 15k = 180k
8 x 30k = 240k
2 x 30k = 60k

my DL numbers might be a bit low but thats 480k healing
480k/10 = 48k healing when i did about 2.6mil total
2.6mil/48k = about 2% healing

07/06/2011 02:03 AMPosted by Chilidog
We switched back to 10 man raiding this week after a weak turn out from our already shaky attendance/performance 25 man raid line up and looking at your rough estimates, the aoe factor of the 4pc doesn't looks near as desirable as it did previously.

I felt the same when my guild decided to do this this week. But in a 25man raid environment i still think it would be very nice. matched with the trinket from alysrazor i think the raid heals would be very nice. in 10 man though idk how much the 10% is actually practical. Yes it would be favorable in fights like beth'tilac and rhyolith, but shannox and baleroc seems like the 4pc would almost be a waste of heals, also a lot into over healing. question, will this proc from the 4pc cause the beacon to heal? just wondering since i havnt actually seen it yet.

doing some math too, 10% seems like a low amount of healing to be giving up those favorable stats imo. it would be extra 2-3k heal procs.... ehh nvm i take that back, that would help if its going off ever FoL DL and HL not to mentions crits and wings. GRRR can't make up my mind.
07/06/2011 01:36 AMPosted by Chilidog
Just curious about your thoughts on going for the bonuses.

Worth it. Go offset with pants.

It's free stats and the set pieces are itemized pretty well. No reason not to go tier. Just because we like haste and spirit more, doesn't mean we can't reforge. And even then, stat balancing is a viable strategy.

07/06/2011 01:38 AMPosted by Chilidog
Wouldn't throwing one into the belt buckle make more sense than to burn a red socket elsewhere?

Forgot about buckle, but the net effect is the same.
07/06/2011 07:39 AMPosted by Lylthe
Worth it. Go offset with pants.
i disagree, i would go offset with the chest piece. i get the whole more int idea, but id only go that route if you're having mana problems, the legs but the amount of mp5 it would actually be giving you doesn't seem worth the loss in haste... imo
07/06/2011 10:01 AMPosted by Marical
i disagree, i would go offset with the chest piece.

Fair enough. I honestly don't pay that much attention anyways. Loot is controlled more by my raid's needs and drops than what I want. Reforge to get the stats you want.

07/06/2011 10:38 AMPosted by Wtfboom
Not necessarily arguing against any of your points from the prior page post, but I do think that it fails to consider the "big picture"

I am considering the big picture. That's why I'm spending quite a bit of time with deprecation factors, overheal considerations, and PROPER BEACON USAGE.

I don't understand why people can seriously consider dedicating a single person that does nothing but watch a single tank. When I'm assigned to the tank, my raid is expecting me to keep my tank alive AND throw out raid heals as needed. This is contriving an unrealistic situation to make mastery look good. And even then, you should be stacking stats at a 1:1:1 ratio.

ToR single target healing has long since been established as stupid. It's inefficient, it's a waste. ToR is a lesser of two evils, not an optimal choice.

There is exactly one fight in Firelands where a single tank is getting smashed, Baleroc. And the cap on mastery shields makes it useless.


I have not deviated from the "spirit to comfort" and "haste to comfort". What I am saying is Firelands "haste to comfort" is pretty damn high. What I'm also saying is if you REALLY REALLY REALLY want to stack your mastery, don't be stupid about it. Stack it 1:1 with crit.
07/06/2011 10:38 AMPosted by Wtfboom
In theory, having a mastery stacking paladin allows the other 4-5 healers to completely ignore that tank, focusing on the remainder of the raid.
this won't work for a majority of the fights right now, ie: beth'tilac phase 2, ryholith... especially in 10 man. thatd be leaving 2 healers to do a 3 healer job in 10 man, or 4-5 healers doing what 6 healers should be doing. the thing that keeps me personally so much against mastery stacking is that you won't be able to help your raid with raid heals. the mastery won't stack enough of a shield through light of dawn to make it viable. in 10 man HM... even normal modes, having a mastery pally that only tank heals would KILL you, no way would you be able to do this. they wouldn't have the mobility that haste paladins would have.
how can you say close-minded thinking? i've only seen you comment on pro mastery related subjects, i've thought about both sides, given my opinions on both sides, changed the topic into talking about bis gear... and you bring up the mastery solo tank healing, all i was saying is that you would be cutting off so much to the raid by losing those raid heals that you would never be able to progress in hard modes like that. so if im close-minded then ur thinking just a narrow minded as i am. yes i enjoy the new mastery stacking effect. but i feel until they remake our mastery to something more completely useful to us, it should continue to be put on the back burners as far as stat priority. im not saying that mastery is bad. im saying its current state is nothing like the other healing classes mastery. with what they did to the mastery, im no longer reluctant to take a piece of gear with mastery on it to later reforge it. they made it acceptable to now use the pieces of raid gear with mastery on it. they wanted to give us more options than "haste or gtfo".
-"you should be stacking stats at a 1:1:1 ratio. "-
i myself responding to you have not said that haste is better. nor have i said crit is better. im saying putting all your eggs in 1 basket will prohibit you from being the best healer possible. as a paladin i find that we are more versatile than just tank healers. i find that when the numbers come out more that we won't be surprised what so ever to see that theres a certain ammount of haste we want, certain ammount of crit we want and a certain ammount of mastery we want to get the most possible from them all. mastery for the absorbs, crit to get the bigger bubbles faster, and haste to let it stack faster/raid heal. this is what im saying. im sorry if i came off a lil narrow minded or 1 sided, i was just arguing your point as you're arguing mine. And if you take the time to actually read everything ive said.. TY :D
07/06/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Wtfboom
It's an inherent fact that mastery stacking will not apply to 10 mans. I guess I felt that should be assumed at this point, my bad.

I was talking about 25 man content as well. I'm usually assigned to a tank, but my guild is expecting me to do my fair share of raid healing too.
07/06/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Wtfboom
. . . and of course more close-minded thinking =(

Except I've explained that once a player has sufficient HPS and spirit, 1:1:1 stacking is a good idea. Your definition of "sufficient HPS" may be considerably different from mine. I'm quite willing to change my tune, and I have in the past. Once I see math or someone points out a problem in mine.
07/06/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Wtfboom
Nobody that posts here wants to actually discuss anything anymore. Everyone wants to state their opinion then defend it without considering any counter points that have been brought up, usually by insulting the party who brought up those counter points

Except no one has bothered to point out where I'm wrong in my analysis. Or offer an alternative analysis. I am defending my points, and I thought I provided a pretty logical argument against mastery stacking.

To be fair, I was curt and impolite about it. For the exact reasons you listed, this debate can
get frustrating. And for that I apologize.
07/06/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Wtfboom
For example, if you think a mastery stacking paladin can't succeed in killing content YOU are wrong.

From page 1 of sticky:
First: Stat weighting is NOT THAT IMPORANT. Having more stats is always good, but the exact balance won't make or break you. Know what the stats do and shuffle them to support YOUR playstyle.

I should also point out that ToR healing and spamming a single target has definitively been shown to be inferior. But if you'd like to see the analysis, I can dig out my old notes.
07/06/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Wtfboom
there is more theorycrafting to be done than just looking at Haste/Spirit builds. At this point we pretty much know everything we could possibly know about the gearing strategy and playstyle. Yet we basically know very little about alternative builds because everyone throws some napkin math in a post, claims nothing can hang with Haste under any 'simulation' and we all just go "oh ok".

I HAVE considered alternative builds. I've shown that in some situations crit beats spirit for longevity. I'm pretty familiar with the situations where mastery is the best stat. I've considered ToR-less specs. I've also found that many of these aren't realistic situations. I've also provided arguments where pure haste/spirit stacking can be silly.

If you think anything is missing, if you think I've made any mistakes, if you think there's a situation that needs to be modelled. Let me know and I'll do it.

I AM open to novel ideas. Just be aware the math doesn't always support them.

However, I by and large end up getting the same arguments thrown at me over and over and I unfortunately only have human patience. So if I bark a bit too loudly, mea culpa. But I will give anyone a fair hearing.
Ok, well I am aware that our mastery mostly sucks, its shield cap is based on the caster health total. Theoreticaly, if we stacked mastery and stam, our absorbs would grow exponentially. The question is, would this be practical? How much would we need to stack for it to overcome the loss from int/haste?
*sigh, I really don't want to go into this again.

The problem isn't amount, it's scaling. First, we can't stack stamina unless we gem for it. Stamina comes from higher ilvl unless you're crazy and gem for it.

When we consider stat scaling, we need to consider opportunity costs from reforging or swapping the particular piece or gemming. If I get a 99999999999 mastery or 10 int. I pick the butt load of mastery. But that's not the gearing tradeoff. If it's a reckless or artful ember topaz.

I don't want to get into the full rundown again, but here's the summary. Throughput only.

10 Intellect
In 359 gear, ~0.0653% throughput increase across the board.

10 Spirit
Roughly 6.3 mp5 in combat.

10 Haste Rating
0.078% increased haste

10 Crit Rating
~0.0558% increased crit chance
On average, this translates into 0.0558% extra healing

10 Mastery Rating
~.0837% shields

So from first glance mastery wins. But it's deprecated anywhere from 0.5 to 0.375. Likewise other stats are deprecated by overheal. Blah blah blah, in the end final throughput is actually pretty close to equal across the board. Exact encounters shift some stats higher than others.

Effects stack multiplicatively. So you actually want a 1:1:1 ratio w/o stacking anything.

But then we have to realize healers don't only have a raw HPS number to shoot for. Deaths can occur to:
1) Very short term burst (Gear haste or mastery to fix. Read above for reasons why I advocate mastery)
2) Long term sustained DTPS (Int/Crit/Mastery/Haste to lesser extent)
3) OOM (Int/Spirit)

And that spell selection is a better option to fix the problems anyways. We're talking delta's in 5%-10% at best.
Ok, well I am aware that our mastery mostly sucks, its shield cap is based on the caster health total. Theoreticaly, if we stacked mastery and stam, our absorbs would grow exponentially. The question is, would this be practical? How much would we need to stack for it to overcome the loss from int/haste?

No, mainly because stamina is a core stat and we can't choose pieces of gear with our without it. Gemming for it means that we either choose stamina gems or choose mastery. Stamina would yield a 1/3rd return due to the 1/3rd health base.

It wouldn't actually be an exponential growth unless the stamina increase caused our shields to grow beyond 1/3rd.


Mastery Paladin can raid heal as well as Haste/ Spirit while it comes to Hard Mode?
Haste/Spirit can totally fulfill the need and can doing both situation well in further progression

Except that Mastery Paladin can outhealing Haste / Spirit on raid healing
I don't see a point to gear toward mastery except You are DESIGNATED tank healer
(Mastery Stack Won't happen on 10 man guild I assuming)

It is 2 World of logs that showing Mastery Paladin have a place on it



Just wish to know more How good Mastery Paladin can do except tank healing


These fights are both shannox, besides from the highly predictalbe quick short miniscule bursts of raid dmg from the spear throw, if hes on the shannox tank, he will have most of the heals and the absorbs will be great here because until phase 2 when the dogs are dead, you can keep that absorb stack up most of the time. find me a mastery tank healing top on beth'tilac, ryolith or rag and then ill give mastery a good consideration towards something besides just pure tank healing.

same guy as the first WoL u listed on a fight that not just the tank is taking damage
this is my arguement. im not saying mastery is viable for fights. im saying that for most fights where its not all tank dmg going out, you will be out healed and not healing as much as you could be if you were spreading out your stats/stacking something else. after reading through these forums and looking at peoples math, and looking at the effects of each stat. ive come to strongly agree with the statement that you want to keep them at a 1:1:1 ratio. or close to it. it would be the most helpful imo to push your hps this way

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