PvE HPally Theorycrafting Pt.2

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Added some macros that I use to sticky.

Hand of XXXXXXX whisper macro:
#showtooltip Hand of Sacrifice
/run if GetSpellCooldown"Hand of Sacrifice"==0 then SendChatMessage(">> Hand of Sacrifice on you! <<","WHISPER",nil,UnitName"mouseover")end
/cast Divine Protection
/cast [@mouseover] Hand of Sacrifice

Aura Mastery announce macro.
#showtooltip Aura Mastery
/run if GetSpellCooldown "Aura Mastery"==0 then local X=select(GetShapeshiftForm(),"Devotion","Retribution","Concentration","Resistance","Crusader");SendChatMessage(X.." Aura Mastery used!","say"); end
/cast Aura Mastery

Most of the long stuff is to prevent spam for when abilities are on CD.
hey lylthe, do u find that on baleroc its worth using FoL at all to build ur stacks faster for when its your turn? i cant decide if the mana loss is worth the buff. JW ur thoughts on it since your pretty smart about this stuff.
Dear Lylthe.

The haste ratings on EJ do not include the buffs from judgment, speed of light and 5% speed buff

So techincally you get 0.92 spell haste from 100 haste rating. 100 x 1.09 x 1.05 x 1.03. You gain more from haste than you would from mastery (still)

117.85/128.125 = 0.92% Spell Haste per 100
07/08/2011 01:27 AMPosted by Marical
hey lylthe, do u find that on baleroc its worth using FoL at all to build ur stacks faster for when its your turn? i cant decide if the mana loss is worth the buff. JW ur thoughts on it since your pretty smart about this stuff.

Tried it, went OOM. If you want to meter pad, use ToR healing and spam 1 HP WoG. If you want to keep people alive, put a beacon on 1 laser soaker and heal the other.

07/08/2011 03:43 AMPosted by Josémourinho
The haste ratings on EJ do not include the buffs from judgment, speed of light and 5% speed buff

I'm aware. But there's a reason I don't include those for rating analysis. I DO include those buffs for spell and "rotation" and soft cap analysis. Those buffs are "static" buffs. They apply equally regardless of how you stack your gear. These buffs are part of the basic paladin.

When looking at gear, what we're really looking at is opportunity cost. As a general rule of thumb, higher ilvl gear is ALMOST always better (trinkets are a common exception). We're comparing and contrasting ilvl budget into the various stats and gemming and reforging.

Haste, crit, and mastery all multiply. So we can take the static multipliers and "divide them out". Technically speaking, I should be including the crit from int and consider it in my analysis of crit since adds instead of multipling, but it's very character specific and the analysis here is a close enough approximation.
Hand of XXXXXXX whisper macro:
#showtooltip Hand of Sacrifice
/run if GetSpellCooldown"Hand of Sacrifice"==0 then SendChatMessage(">> Hand of Sacrifice on you! <<","WHISPER",nil,UnitName"mouseover")end
/cast Divine Protection
/cast [@mouseover] Hand of Sacrifice

In the past, DivProt has not reduced HoSac damage. The only things that reduce/prevent HoSac damage as far as I'm aware are bubble (all damage) and BoP (physical only). The last time I checked personally was 4.0 PTR but I haven't seen anything to indicate that this has changed. Have you looked into this more recently?
Actually I have not. I've actually heard about some references to this on EJ recently, but I haven't been able to find the specific post. I just sort of assumed this worked and never really looked into it. If this is wrong, I'll update accordingly.
i've been following your posts for a long time, but never really got to say Thank You!

For all you healing tanks that don't take any damage, yes ToR sucks. But take a look at if from the perspective of the middle tier raiders. Our tanks take more spiky damage, allowing the healing rotation, DL DL DL WoG, which is very effective for a burst of healing, doing little or no over healing. The talent is there for good reason, and if your tank doesnt take enough damage to warrant DL spam then don't spec into it.
Confirmed, Divine Protection does NOT reduce Hand of Sacrifice transfered damage. Another special case that Blizzard wonderfully notified us about!

Here's sections of my combat log. I've edited out lines that don't matter. In this case, I volunteered my good friend Cadavera to stand there and let mobs beat on him.

7/12 22:03:16.966 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000002B8B1A9,"Lylthe",0x511,0x0,0x0180000002B8B1A9,"Lylthe",0x511,0x0,498,"Divine Protection",0x2,BUFF

7/12 22:03:17.183 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000002B8B1A9,"Lylthe",0x511,0x0,0x0180000000011B44,"Cadavera",0x512,0x0,6940,"Hand of Sacrifice",0x2,BUFF

7/12 22:03:18.516 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130B3A0000B1949,"Blackscale Raider",0xa48,0x0,0x0180000000011B44,"Cadavera",0x512,0x0,1901,-1,1,0,0,815,nil,nil,nil

7/12 22:03:18.950 DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x0180000000011B44,"Cadavera",0x512,0x0,0x0180000002B8B1A9,"Lylthe",0x511,0x0,6940,"Hand of Sacrifice",0x2,814,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

I clearly have Divine Protection. Cad then took a melee hit of 1901. Back deriving the full hit should be 2716. 30% of that unmitigated is 814 (slight rounding error). If DP mitigated that, it should be hitting me for 651.

7/12 22:07:07.359 SWING_DAMAGE,0xF130B3A0000B2151,"Blackscale Raider",0xa48,0x0,0x0180000000011B44,"Cadavera",0x10512,0x0,1896,-1,1,0,0,812,nil,nil,nil

7/12 22:07:07.842 DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x0180000000011B44,"Cadavera",0x10512,0x0,0x0180000002B8B1A9,"Lylthe",0x511,0x0,6940,"Hand of Sacrifice",0x2,812,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Taken hit of 1896. Back derive to 2709. Sac transfer 812. Math confirmed in log.
I don't think I ever brought this up specifically, but if you ever need to heal the beacon directly, use DL instead of HL. With ToR and HoPo generation, DL's HPM efficiency ties with HL, but at much higher HPS.
i've been breaking away from the "HASTE HASTE HASTE" view point as of late and really see the different utilities of each stat on diff fights. I really find that overall i like "balancing" stats more than just stacking haste haste haste.


our heroic shannox kill from the other night. but i also want to say, when i say balancing im not literally reforging to keep balanced stats, what im saying is gear wise its nice to not have all haste, and to reforge to haste later. the HPM seem to be alot more efficient too in that i dont need to spam as many heals but at the same time my heals are still relatively quick.
I just know this is going to bite me in the ass, but in pursuit of truthiness and fairishness, I'm going to bring it up anyways.

In VERY SPECIFIC SITUATIONS I can see mastery stacking to be a good idea. After spending a good deal of time on Heroic Shannox, I'm seeing our tanks get smashed for more than their total health in a very short period of time (less than 1 sec). Some of these are avoidable, some of these are just bad RNG (arc slash + melee).

The reason I'm saying mastery is the answer is because the tanks simply don't have the health to eat these attacks. Bubbles are the only option because these events are basically unpredictable. CD's can't be rolled for the entirety of the fight and raw HPS can't cover it if the tanks are getting 2 shot. The tanks simply need more "health".

So if this becomes more common throughout hardmodes, then yes mastery stacking will be a good idea. Otherwise, I'd recommend a balance of "to comfort" then 1:1:1.

Anyone still remember this?
Wrath of the Lich King. Let’s look at the consequences of infinite mana... That often came down to very high tank or raid damage. So now not only did healers not have much of a choice about which spell to use, but they also had to use that spell every global cooldown or risk someone dying. This made healing stressful without the reward of having made good decisions.
there was a discussion about power torrent vs. heartsong for holy paladins and which is better Mp5. personally i enjoy power torrent more considering judgement divine plea arcane torrent are all based off of maximum mana pool. It also gives more throughput. idk kinda posting it here cause i know your really good with the math for this game. so which one is actually better?
07/14/2011 06:52 AMPosted by Marical
power torrent vs. heartsong

For heartsong, research tells me it has 20 sec ICD, 25% proc chance. Roughly 28 sec between procs, lasts 15 seconds, means ~54% uptime, or 108 spirit. The uptime matches what I'm seeing in my logs. 108 spirit is ~68mp5 in combat.

Power Torrent has a 45 sec ICD, 33% proc chance, and is seeing ~ 24% uptime. Now I've never been a fan of RNG burst throughput, but who knows, maybe you're luckier than me. For regen, in a perfect case, you can time Divine Plea and Arcane Torrent to coincide w/ Power Torrent.

500 int -> 551.25 Int from Bok+Armor -> 8268.75 more mana

550 Int normally gives ~90 mp5 from spirit regen. This is a very rough estimate and very gear dependent. Assumes ~2500 base spirit. ~21.6 real mp5.

Replenishment: 41.34375 mp5 @ 100% uptime, 9.92 mp5 total assuming procs line up. AFAIK replenishment should be up ~100% of the time so this is should be a safe assumption

Divine Plea: 1488.375 Extra Mana if timed.
Arcane Torrent: 496.125 Extra Mana if timed.

DP and AT need to make up 36.4 mp5 to tie with heartsong. That means you need to be syncing your regen CD's once every 272 seconds or more often. Basically, if you can sync DP and AT with a power torrent proc in 272. seconds or less, power torrent is better mana regen than heartsong.

That's actually pretty decent if you can sync the CD's. Pull it off 2x a fight and it beats Heartsong. On the other hand, 1 poorly timed DP can cause a wipe, so be careful.

But what if we said, we only timed Arcane Torrent and Divine Pleaed as we used to do?

That unfortunately doesn't work since you'd have to sync a CD every 68 seconds.


Regarding the Secondary stats. I've got spreadsheets and I tried to make my work as transparent as possible. In general, I've softened on the hold haste hard stacking to stat balancing.

But the reality of Firelands is that I'm seeing my tanks get smashed to death in 1-2 GCD's. That means a haste stack or mastery stacking strat and it's something that's in progress.

I personally believe you got lucky, and in a tank smash type situation, relying on RNG is a good way to wipe. But if it works for you, great.
roth i tried looking up your logs. but all i can find are wipe attempts and then some second group in your guild. can you post something please? i just want to see how the numbers are adding up. example: which is your top heal how much its healed for etc. and to see when your spiking. Because if im correct crit would lead to more of a raid heal type of spec with holy radiance and LoD criting more often. But on fights like Heroic Shannox i just can't see how on a tank intensive fight you can rely on RNG to keep him up. i just dont see it happening

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