That it?

General Discussion
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Why should they care if you're not excited? Many people are. You are choosing not to run hard modes since they're so similar to regulars despite having 12+ kills on basically all of the normal mode bosses. If they're so similar, why would you not chase after the better gear? Afterall, you should clear them in almost the same amount of time right? Many people who are still pushing hard modes and people who are 12 or 13/13 are looking forward to this next patch. This tier was long and tedious, if you wanted to push for world firsts, it took a ridiculous amount of effort as compared to previous bosses. A shorter tier will be a breather.


This is one possible, (and obviously valid since you hold it) perspective. However I would say that the guilds running extremely heavy raiding schedules for world firsts (made even worse obviously in the first tier of the expansion when they still have to care about doing heroics and rep grinds as well during the earliest days for that loot) are such a statistical anomaly that balancing around them would be absurd. I, however, and yes, I'm just -supposing-, a lot of other raiders, enjoy both being able to put a decent (but not life consuming) amount of time into raiding (3n/wk or so), and make progress. And yet: 1) not finish the tier (aka run out of new content) way before the next is set to come out, or 2) have a raiding schedule drop to a mere single night a week because that is as long as it takes to farm the available content.

I think of raiding like an intermural sports team, or a bowling league or something similar. Show up on X, Y, and Z night for the game. If we'd wanted to join a team that only had games on night X, we could have done so long ago. Having the "league" force a reduction in games per week on all teams at this point, is extremely hard to see as a good move.
04/28/2011 03:12 PMPosted by Bashiok
so it'll be 2 months until the PTR starts


Oh, you're gonna be, like, totally eating hats. You will masticate multiple hats.


Upboat for use of "masticate."

Oh wait. This isn't reddit. :(
04/28/2011 11:39 PMPosted by Vindel
You raiders need to shut up and stop crying.


Heaven forbid raiders comment on... raids.

04/28/2011 11:36 PMPosted by Brolex
Most guilds haven't cleared the current tier on normal yet and it's been 5 months. Maybe you should try more than H Halfus if you're that bored of this game?


Actually, according to WoWprogress (the most accurate site we have that I know of) more people have downed reg Nef than defeated Yogg or LK25 before the release of the next tier.

Is everyone 13/13? No, but everyone shouldn't be 13/13 before the next tier comes out. Nobody was complaining in Wrath that ICC came out soon because only 5% of guilds had downed H Anub 25, why should H Nef or Sinestra be the barometer for progression now?


How does that disprove what I said at all?

Nefarian: 14717 (26.62%)

Last I checked, 26.62% != most. Previous encounters have no relevance to this.
My worry isn't just the number of bosses, but the lack of variety. Part of what I think makes this tier of raid content so enjoyable is that we have three different raid instances (or four if you count BH) all with markedly different environments.
At the risk of oversimplifying, in firelands the bosses are going to be fire elementals of one stripe or another. There's nothing wrong with that, if an instance calls for fire elementals then by the loa lets see some fire elementals. What worries me is that this is going to be our only tier of content for quite some time. Are we going to get sick of fire?

How does that disprove what I said at all?

Nefarian: 14717 (26.62%)

Last I checked, 26.62% != most. Previous encounters have no relevance to this.


If we wanted to wait for >50% of guilds who've downed a raid boss to kill the final boss of any tier, it'd be more than a year between content patches.

We're already probably looking at 7 months of the current tier before Firelands goes live.

Exactly how slow do you want content to be released?

You can still progress on lower tiers of raids while the players who've been bored to tears with the current content move on to something new.
04/28/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Bashiok
We've trended toward choosing quality over quantity with some of our content creation, and while that isn't usually a bad thing, it's rarely a good thing from a perception point of view. I think that's something we realize but - - and this is sort of a difficult concept to get across sometimes - - is that the game is... really big, and by the laws of physics really big things don't change direction very quickly.


If quality isn't the first priority, it's not Blizzard, it's the rest of the industry. Never compromise on this. Don't you ever change. <3
04/28/2011 11:48 PMPosted by Hexus
Are we going to get sick of fire?


I would say there are more people who have sworn to never ever step foot inside MC (or perhaps more specifically never to fight Rag) again, than any other raid in history, heh. Most likely even over ToC.

Not exactly due to instance itself mind you, it was ok-ish for the time.. but the fact it was still regularly run by progression guilds during the AQ40 days, yeah... *shudder*. ;)
04/28/2011 11:44 PMPosted by Thearalyn


Actually, according to WoWprogress (the most accurate site we have that I know of) more people have downed reg Nef than defeated Yogg or LK25 before the release of the next tier.

Is everyone 13/13? No, but everyone shouldn't be 13/13 before the next tier comes out. Nobody was complaining in Wrath that ICC came out soon because only 5% of guilds had downed H Anub 25, why should H Nef or Sinestra be the barometer for progression now?


How does that disprove what I said at all?

Nefarian: 14717 (26.62%)

Last I checked, 26.62% != most. Previous encounters have no relevance to this.


The majority of players don't raid, or have real hopes of raiding endgame content. The Majority will NEVER full clear a raid. You can't use the majority, you can only compare to previous tiers.

Allow me to show you, WoWprogress's "world" listing for guilds to kill Anub25
Call of the Crusade (25): 52886 (89.12%)
That means, when you unmath the percentage that WoWprogress recognizes there being 59343 guilds in the US and EU.
Assuming that roughly half the playerbase is in the US and EU, and the playerbase of 10 million during ToC, that gives us 1,483,562 players as having killed Anub 25. Divide that by 5 million and you get 29.67% of players are in guilds that have killed at least one boss in a raid and are thus listable as "raiding" guilds.

Even if you assume a 10-15% increase for unguilded PuG raiders, you still have less than 50% raiding in any mentionable capacity.

tl;dr: You won't see the majority going 12/12 simply because the majority do not raid at a relevant level to this discussion. If you wanted to wait for the majority to finish a tier, you would be waiting until the Sun goes supernova
04/28/2011 01:00 PMPosted by Albinosmurfs
that it?


some people are just not happy with anything put in front of them....
Burning crusades content delivery mechanic was flawless, why reinvent the wheel?
I never heard a complaint about players having to spend too much time or too little for raids.

How does that disprove what I said at all?

Nefarian: 14717 (26.62%)

Last I checked, 26.62% != most. Previous encounters have no relevance to this.


If we wanted to wait for >50% of guilds who've downed a raid boss to kill the final boss of any tier, it'd be more than a year between content patches.

We're already probably looking at 7 months of the current tier before Firelands goes live.

Exactly how slow do you want content to be released?

You can still progress on lower tiers of raids while the players who've been bored to tears with the current content move on to something new.


I think you need to read what the original post was responding to instead of pulling things out of context.

It doesn't matter how amazing Firelands is. Why? Because most guilds will have normal modes on farm in a matter of <2 months and will be waiting another ~5 months for the next tier of content. THIS IS BORING.


This is blatantly false.


How does that disprove what I said at all?

Nefarian: 14717 (26.62%)

Last I checked, 26.62% != most. Previous encounters have no relevance to this.


The majority of players don't raid, or have real hopes of raiding endgame content. The Majority will NEVER full clear a raid. You can't use the majority, you can only compare to previous tiers.

Allow me to show you, WoWprogress's "world" listing for guilds to kill Anub25
Call of the Crusade (25): 52886 (89.12%)
That means, when you unmath the percentage that WoWprogress recognizes there being 59343 guilds in the US and EU.
Assuming that roughly half the playerbase is in the US and EU, and the playerbase of 10 million during ToC, that gives us 1,483,562 players as having killed Anub 25. Divide that by 5 million and you get 29.67% of players are in guilds that have killed at least one boss in a raid and are thus listable as "raiding" guilds.

Even if you assume a 10-15% increase for unguilded PuG raiders, you still have less than 50% raiding in any mentionable capacity.

tl;dr: You won't see the majority going 12/12 simply because the majority do not raid at a relevant level to this discussion. If you wanted to wait for the majority to finish a tier, you would be waiting until the Sun goes supernova


Again, making points against what the original point of the post was.


It doesn't matter how amazing Firelands is. Why? Because most guilds will have normal modes on farm in a matter of <2 months and will be waiting another ~5 months for the next tier of content. THIS IS BORING.


This is false. I used numbers to show this was false. NO WHERE did I say the majority of people SHOULD clear content before the next tier comes out. Please put less words into my mouth.


If we wanted to wait for >50% of guilds who've downed a raid boss to kill the final boss of any tier, it'd be more than a year between content patches.

We're already probably looking at 7 months of the current tier before Firelands goes live.

Exactly how slow do you want content to be released?

You can still progress on lower tiers of raids while the players who've been bored to tears with the current content move on to something new.


I think you need to read what the original post was responding to instead of pulling things out of context.

It doesn't matter how amazing Firelands is. Why? Because most guilds will have normal modes on farm in a matter of <2 months and will be waiting another ~5 months for the next tier of content. THIS IS BORING.


This is blatantly false.


It's not flase, that is what we are complaining about.

Nobody is doubting that Firelands will rock our collective socks, we are bemoaning the fact that no matter how hard our socks are rocked, they can only be rocked by the same thing for so long. And the rockers of Firelands, well there just aren't enough of them.

(yes, i took that metaphor farther than it needed to go)


I think you need to read what the original post was responding to instead of pulling things out of context.



This is blatantly false.


It's not flase, that is what we are complaining about.

Nobody is doubting that Firelands will rock our collective socks, we are bemoaning the fact that no matter how hard our socks are rocked, they can only be rocked by the same thing for so long. And the rockers of Firelands, well there just aren't enough of them.

(yes, i took that metaphor farther than it needed to go)


So despite 26.62% of RAIDERS (WoWprogress doesn't track pugs) have cleared an instance that has SIX bosses AFTER FIVE MONTHS, you're saying that the MAJORITY OF RAIDERS will have downed Firelands within two.

I think you need to double check what you're arguing about.


It's not flase, that is what we are complaining about.

Nobody is doubting that Firelands will rock our collective socks, we are bemoaning the fact that no matter how hard our socks are rocked, they can only be rocked by the same thing for so long. And the rockers of Firelands, well there just aren't enough of them.

(yes, i took that metaphor farther than it needed to go)


So despite 26.62% of RAIDERS (WoWprogress doesn't track pugs) have cleared an instance that has SIX bosses AFTER FIVE MONTHS, you're saying that the MAJORITY OF RAIDERS will have downed Firelands within two.

I think you need to double check what you're arguing about.


How about the fact that 44% have cleared Cho'Gall
or that 33% have downed Al'Akir.

Nefarian is treated by most as the 12th boss, in general if Nef is down then everything else is. So yes, the fact that 26% (which is the majority of raiders) have cleared 12/12 in 5 months tells me that in 2-3 the majority of raiders will have cleared 7 bosses

math and logic is hard aint it?


So despite 26.62% of RAIDERS (WoWprogress doesn't track pugs) have cleared an instance that has SIX bosses AFTER FIVE MONTHS, you're saying that the MAJORITY OF RAIDERS will have downed Firelands within two.

I think you need to double check what you're arguing about.


How about the fact that 44% have cleared Cho'Gall
or that 33% have downed Al'Akir.

Nefarian is treated by most as the 12th boss, in general if Nef is down then everything else is. So yes, the fact that 26% (which is the majority of raiders) have cleared 12/12 in 5 months tells me that in 2-3 the majority of raiders will have cleared 7 bosses

math and logic is hard aint it?


Apparently since you think 26% of a population entirely comprised of raiders is the majority.
WoWprogress does however, continue to count dead guilds for quite a while. And there is likely to be a very substantial number of "guilds" that barely have any kills at all, as the guild fell apart upon dissention from how poorly it was performing. Just to have those people reform into new guilds that do the same thing again. Yes these are not the kind of people that are ever likely to fully clear even the normal modes of the tier, but they're still being -counted- perhaps 5 times each, instead of once. Which does taint the posted statistics considerably.
i will concede that majority is wrong, my math got jumbled in thought.

26% though is the COMMON AMOUNT that clear a tier before the next tier is released. The only anomaly to this, in the data I can find, is lolHalion (who you have to kill to even be listed as a guild for percentages) and ToC which basically EVERYONE has admitted was too easy and short.

25-30% is the number to look at, not 50, not 87, not 100.
04/29/2011 12:06 AMPosted by Ophidon
ry substantial number of "guilds" that barely have any kills at all, as the guild fell apart upon dissention from how poorly it was performing. Just to have those people reform into new guilds that do the same thing again. Yes these are not the kind of people that are ever likely to fully clear even the normal modes of the tier, but they're still being -counted- perhaps 5 times each, instead of once. Which does taint the posted statistics considerably


While it may taint the statistic, it defaltes the numbers who supposedly cleared the content

If you have 55/100 listed as doing X, but then you realize that you have 6 people being counted twice your number drops to 49/94 or from 55->52%. So when you take out the doubles, the statistics of what happens gets smaller

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