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Needs more Ulduar
04/29/2011 09:02 AMPosted by Leafylol
ITT: 4/12 heroes worried they will be oh so bored with a raid they haven't seen yet


Beats 0/12 trolls.

I have concerns about only being 7 bosses, but I'm sure it'll work out. I just hope the reduction in number of bosses lets them get the next tier out quicker, since 7 bosses is have quite the longevity of this tier.

My guild will probably still be working on tier 11 while we work on tier 12. I suspect that will be true of a lot of guilds who have not gotten too far in heroic modes.
04/28/2011 09:18 PMPosted by Bashiok
Given 2.1(which was WoW at it's peak for being worked on), being released in four months with two complete raids, three questing areas/daily sets.


Those instances and daily areas were originally intended to release with Burning Crusade, so yeah, while they were put on hold when we realized they wouldn't be done in time they didn't take too much time to finish off. That's sort of my point, you're thinking patch release to patch release and really there's work being done far in advance (or even at the same time), and content being shifted or even cut as we revise our schedule. Looking back at Cataclysm release, we probably should have held some stuff back, which would have created a situation not too unlike 2.1.


So what about the dancestudio? :)
04/28/2011 05:51 PMPosted by Bashiok
is exactly why all the rumors of WoW developers moving over to Titan keep popping up.


No, it's used a lot because it's a convenient excuse for why someone doesn't like something. If it wasn't the B Team phoning it in it would be Activision controlling us, or Tigole hating casuals, or Chilton hating hardcore, or Horde bias, or whatever. They're scapegoats. Which is fine, people need easy excuses and labels to explain things they can't articulate or just don't understand. The great thing is that the posts that contain those types of conclusions rarely, if ever, contain actual productive or useful feedback. We make B Team jokes almost every week. They're ridiculous, we know it's ridiculous, it doesn't matter to what we're doing if people believe it or not. We'll keep doing what we think is right for the game and they can label that as a product of whatever they want.

Looking at WotLK, there were 8 months between Ulduar and ICC (with ToC at about the 5-month mark). We're about a week and a half away from hitting 6 months since Cataclysm released. Even if 4.2 breaks all the records in terms of PTR time, we probably won't see it for AT LEAST another month. That's an incredibly optimistic estimation that I'm basing on the hat-eating comments earlier in the thread. Puts us at 7 months from Cataclysm release to Firelands hitting. Yeah, one month faster than ICC, but it's got 5 fewer bosses and there's no ToC inbetween.


Patch development length isn't based around # of bosses. Patches contain a great many more things than boss encounter design and balance. Certainly they're one part of some patches, but I would argue the patch history timeline proves that boss development time has little bearing on the length of time between patch releases. Which goes back to my point of finite development resources.

I don't mean there's not A-team quality successors on WOW.

The MMO genre needs innovation. In 2011, killing the same bosses for 8 months is getting old. I don't know how to do that without crazy development demand. If you let people go crazy they only play for a month or so each content patch.

The AH is a pain in players and developers butts. I've made tons of money to support myself, buy the alch mount, etc, but it has taken a lot of gameplay time. Fighting with botters is ridiculous. It promotes hacking and gold selling in general, making it a nightmare for you.

That's why... If the people that made WOW the top MMO aren't out innovating the MMO genre with Titan, I weap.

04/29/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Leafylol
Don't complain that dessert might be too small when you're struggling to wolf down that hamburger that's in front of you. That's all I'm saying. Therefore, this thread is mostly pointless.


Are you trying to tell us that if we don't eat our meat, we can't have any pudding?

/trollface
There is a common disconnect going on here. You don't have to be 13/13 HM to be bored with a tier.

Seeing the same bosses over and over again, with the same mechanics over and over is tiring. (heroic modes generally BUILD on encounters, they don't replace them, though Rags is supposedly different) Even moreso if the encounter is not fun to begin with (ie: Magmaw). So no, you do not need to have everything cleared to have an opinion on "fun". 7 bosses, regardless of how good the encounters are, sharing the same 'fire' theme, WILL get old quick.

On to productive discussion:

There is an easy solution here: As someone suggested early on, retune TotFW for the next tier, and give it REAL loot. Look, this is a GREAT raid, but no one does it on a weekly basis because of the slot-machined loot. Boom, your 7 bosses just became 9.

Then, add two more 'quantity' bosses either in Throne, Firelands, or a separate environment. Heck, even make them 99% rehashes/reskins of fights that virtually no one downed when they were end-game content (IE: Algalon - AWESOME fight, but how many downed it prior to ToC?). 11 bosses for a tier in 2-3 separate environments = reasonable. That's basically what 4.1 offers since as I said, no one currently cares about TotFW. The 4 bosses you add can be the 'farm ones', and Firelands can be your "brick-wall" bosses.

Alternately, if you're going to offer 1/2 as much RELEVANT content (ie: raids) at each tier, I expect my first monthly bill after 4.2 to be for 1/2 as much.
04/29/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Leafylol
Don't complain that dessert might be too small when you're struggling to wolf down that hamburger that's in front of you. That's all I'm saying. Therefore, this thread is mostly pointless.


In the old days where tiers were actually tiers, sure. With a gear reset every tier however, content even a single tier old is immediately irrelevant. Is it still -possible- to run? Of course, but it has only minorly more actual usefulness than putting together an ICC, or even an MC run would. It is not something that raiding guilds will make weekly and mandatory as happened in the older days, to little complaint. Which eased guild boredom by leaving them enough to do in a week, substantially.
I have a concern, from a casual player point of view. I get where the hardcore guys come from but the fear about content release and keeping up doesn't only apply to those who log in 4-5 days a week.

I've slowly become a more casual player over time, you know, life and all that. It has gotten to a point where logging in once a week is sufficient to see all content (something you sort of planned for) which I appreciate, but at the same time its frightening for a fan. If it takes 6 months between new content patches, or major content patches, then there is more than a good chance even casuals will get bored. Let me explain from that point of view.

Lets say Ive done dailies but I dont like logging in everyday to do them over and over, and ive run the 5 mans, run some raids, got enough gear that others wont cringe when they see me show up to the party. When a new raid drops, everyone gets excited and plays more often, so instead of my usual once a week to see if i get a drop, ill make some time and play 3-4 days, especially with summer coming up. We will run a good bit through firelands and ill feel one of two ways if im a casual 1) ive seen enough of it, its cool, but its time to back down to once a week or 2) seen it, ill finish it up later when it becomes farm for the guild/realm. Because im casual, and i like getting new gear but not enough to be here every day, and long drawn out time between new content, however big or small means my account is being cancelled. I dont have anything to do. Ive got 3 level 85s and an 80 i got tired of playing, and then a 26 and 34 something else i wanted to try but dont particularly care for.because im a huge fan and have been around since vanilla. but i dont wanna level those toons that much anyway and ive done the new content with the other toons for cat.

Anyway, paint it how you want, that example is far from perfect, the point is, people are dropping out. My guild is seeing numbers drop in participation, in more people letting their accounts freeze for a while, and its not just on my realm/in my guild. Its becoming more commonplace for not-hardcore-but-fairly-active-casuals to get into a rhythm of letting the accounts freeze until a week or two after new content drops and then come in, play for 4 weeks pretty solid when they make time, see the new stuff, and then freeze again for 4 months until major new patch. This can't be what you guys want.

Im not suggesting its plausible to have new stuff all the time. I know resources are finite. You guys love to take our suggestions and read the feedback but its hard for some of us, not just to articulate our own feelings, but also to make them make sense to you when we don't know what you know. When you are at the office, and you know about all this stuff coming that you will announce in the next year, your head is full of all the incoming stuff, and all we see or know of is what we have now or coming in the next 2-3 weeks. We dont have the same sense of " Yah but wait til what is coming AFTER this." toc was a great little bridge to ICC. Obviously Firelands isn't the end, we havn't begun to take on Deathwing yet so I imagine thats in the pipeline and im guessing will be epic. Im just saying, from our point of view, it would be nice to see something between firelands and wherever DW is (assuming hes next) without having 8 months of seeing thats really new. a little exaggerated I realize but the effect is the same, people go away and wait to come back.

I also realize there is a solution to guild participation, which is get new member and consolidate with raid teams/guilds that have the same problem. But I, like a lot of people im sure, dont want to tell those people who we raided with that they have no place raiding with us anymore because they didnt pay for thier account to stay active and play when they were basically doing the same things with us 2 nights a week for the last 4 months at 15 bucks/mo. for a non-hardcore guild/team I feel like thats asking too much. and if we start doing that, we will be doing in between every major patch. so the raid team is constantly changing, no sense of guild togetherness. Im sure ill get flamed and people will tear it apart, but this is what I feel like. And I think its important that IF this is echoed that there may be something that should be looked at and considered because how we feel as players, however real it is in Data, is important, because at the end of the day, when deciding if i want to keep paying my account, i dont sit down with a paper pad and write everything out and measure the time lapses, i decide to pay by whether or not I feel like it.
First off, I just want to say that the preview for Firelands absolutely looks amazing. All new boss models, textures, audio, etc... This is what a new raid should be, and I thank Blizzard's art team for putting in the work to make it fresh.

As far as the disparity between the amount of raid content we're getting in 4.2 compared to major content patches of the past, here's my perspective on it:

Firelands was obviously a lot of work to create. No one's disputing that fact, and again I praise Blizzard and the WoW team for putting in that work. Possibly, from Blizzard's perspective it sort of feels like a lot more than it is in terms of content for players to experience. Yes, I know about the dailies, the blue dragonflight lore lines, the Thrall lore lines, and some of the other cool things that are coming in 4.2... but this thread was specifically about raid content. All the other cool stuff sounds great, but it can be done in a relatively short amount of time and then forgotten forever.

And now I hate to do this, but let's compare 3.1 with 4.2:

3.1, April 2009 (5 months into Wrath)
Ulduar. Easily the best raid of Wrath, arguably the best raid ever created in WoW. What did we get?
11 new boss models (14 total bosses)
A Legendary.
A potentially world-ending plot.
10 man loot table, 25 man loot table, 10 man hard mode loot table, 25 man hard mode loot table (the most unique pieces of loot from any raid to date)
Hard mode-only boss.

4.2, ??? 2011 (I would say minimum 6 months into Cata)
Firelands. Looks cool so far, has the potential to be an amazing raid. What will we get?
6 new boss models (7 total bosses, final is a boss we've already fought once)
A Legendary
A potentially world-ending plot.
1 loot table for all 4 modes of play. Putting Heroic on the top of a piece of gear doesn't make it different.
Although no hard mode boss, I'll let that one slide since we got one in 4.0.6

These are the facts between the first new raid from each expansion. Yes, I know there's basically going to be more overall stuff in 4.2 than there was in 3.1, but I'd still prefer a more substantial raid addition to all the "stuff" we'll be getting instead.

Also, I agree that 7 bosses is a great number of bosses for a raid. The problem is that between shared lockouts (Now between not only 10 and 25, but regular and heroic), and this being the only new raid in 4.2, you can't skirt around the fact that raiders will have drastically less new content to do in this patch than they've ever had before. Hell even 4.2 offered more to do, even if it was just the same thing 4 times in a row.

At least throw us a couple of 1 or 2 boss instances to fill out the patch a little. Naturally, I'll eat my words if there's some kind of announcement forthcoming about the additional raid content coming in 4.2, but Bashlok's post seemed pretty cut and dried.
Can't really bash it until you try it. Seven seems like a low number, but as someone mentioned, Sunwell was incredibly difficult and had a low number of bosses in it. Talking about how easy it will be to clear and to farm right now is a silly point, so hold your complaints until the content actually launches.

And also stop complaining about the long time between patches. WotLK was far too rushed. The time between ToC and Ulduar was way too short. The only reason the short time between ToC and ICC was nice was because of how utterly terrible ToC was.

Please don't encourage the rushed patches, let Blizzard take their time and develop some quality updates.

Having said that, I do wish that 10 and 25 were on separate lockouts.
They hope the gear will keep us busy because of current drop rates apply 7 bosses is not a lot of gear, so it's going to take quite a bit longer to finish gearing, not that it keeps me playing the game.
Can't really bash it until you try it. Seven seems like a low number, but as someone mentioned, Sunwell was incredibly difficult and had a low number of bosses in it. Talking about how easy it will be to clear and to farm right now is a silly point, so hold your complaints until the content actually launches.

And also stop complaining about the long time between patches. WotLK was far too rushed. The time between ToC and Ulduar was way too short. The only reason the short time between ToC and ICC was nice was because of how utterly terrible ToC was.

Please don't encourage the rushed patches, let Blizzard take their time and develop some quality updates.

Having said that, I do wish that 10 and 25 were on separate lockouts.


this and the post above it are interesting. Firelands does look absolutely AMAZING. Quality updates are fantastic but there needs to be a good balance, which i realize it different depending on who you are talking to, i dont mind waiting, but like said above, you can get quality inside 5-6 months and still have more content. Sure, we havn't Firelands and I can only hope it feels as/more epic than Ulduar did. The nice thing about Wrath for casuals was the you always felt "behind". In cataclysm even casuals feel like they are "waiting" for new stuff instead of still trying to clear the things that the best guilds had on farm. At the end of Wrath there was still a large number of players without Kingslayer. At the end of wrath, a large number of players had never seen past the 4th boss of ulduar. Casuals were going back to all that to clean up after leveling to 85 and getting to ilevel 346 ish. I just feel like now, more players, even casuals are on the front of the curve.
This patch is still far bigger than 3.2 was.
Can't really bash it until you try it. Seven seems like a low number, but as someone mentioned, Sunwell was incredibly difficult and had a low number of bosses in it. Talking about how easy it will be to clear and to farm right now is a silly point, so hold your complaints until the content actually launches.

And also stop complaining about the long time between patches. WotLK was far too rushed. The time between ToC and Ulduar was way too short. The only reason the short time between ToC and ICC was nice was because of how utterly terrible ToC was.

Please don't encourage the rushed patches, let Blizzard take their time and develop some quality updates.

Having said that, I do wish that 10 and 25 were on separate lockouts.


I don't think people are really complaining that it will be too easy and quick to finish... I think it's just that there's no more separate 10 and 25, or even regular and heroic, and only 7 bosses means if you only log in to raid (like many, many people I know these days), it's gonna get old really, really fast. Not to mention that the whole raid's fire, fire, fire, lava, fire, lava, lava, etc.... trust me, that WILL get old fast. The most succinct way to sum it up is this: An entire tier is 1 run of 7 bosses? The only solution is to make the raid fantastically hard... like Sunwell hard so that boss gating happens organically... but isn't that precisely what Blizzard swore they would never do again?

It's difficult to understand the thought process behind making a 7 boss tier. And when they try to explain it, it's all about new this and new that, and give it a chance. Ok, fair enough. But as someone else pointed out on this thread, is having everything new and fresh really going above and beyond with art direction? Shouldn't we expect this anyway?

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