That it?

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is exactly why all the rumors of WoW developers moving over to Titan keep popping up.


No, it's used a lot because it's a convenient excuse for why someone doesn't like something. If it wasn't the B Team phoning it in it would be Activision controlling us, or Tigole hating casuals, or Chilton hating hardcore, or Horde bias, or whatever. They're scapegoats. Which is fine, people need easy excuses and labels to explain things they can't articulate or just don't understand. The great thing is that the posts that contain those types of conclusions rarely, if ever, contain actual productive or useful feedback. We make B Team jokes almost every week. They're ridiculous, we know it's ridiculous, it doesn't matter to what we're doing if people believe it or not. We'll keep doing what we think is right for the game and they can label that as a product of whatever they want.


Oh I agree, there's going to be something regardless -- I've been around the block a few times, I know how the community works. My point was just to illustrate that a lot of people are confused why suddenly with Cataclysm the "finite development resources" thing is coming up so much. People feel like we're getting less content (whether that's actually true or not) than we used to, and the response has generally been "we don't have the resources to do more", which makes people wonder where those resources went.

Looking at WotLK, there were 8 months between Ulduar and ICC (with ToC at about the 5-month mark). We're about a week and a half away from hitting 6 months since Cataclysm released. Even if 4.2 breaks all the records in terms of PTR time, we probably won't see it for AT LEAST another month. That's an incredibly optimistic estimation that I'm basing on the hat-eating comments earlier in the thread. Puts us at 7 months from Cataclysm release to Firelands hitting. Yeah, one month faster than ICC, but it's got 5 fewer bosses and there's no ToC inbetween.


Patch development length isn't based around # of bosses. Patches contain a great many more things than boss encounter design and balance. Certainly they're one part of some patches, but I would argue the patch history timeline proves that boss development time has little bearing on the length of time between patch releases. Which goes back to my point of finite development resources.


Right, I get that. I'm just not seeing what the other stuff is going in that's resulting in what seems to be less content. It just looks like less content, which makes it seem like the finite pool of resources got smaller.

I'm really not trying to point fingers, I'm just trying to express the exasperation that myself and a lot of others are feeling. I've been a loyal supporter of Blizzard for a long time. Hell, I've hung out with you at Blizzcon. It just kinda feels like the push in Cataclysm has been moving away from what made me enjoy playing the game for so long, and I don't understand the reasons why.

I like raiding 4 days a week. Posts in here make it sound like there will not be enough content to sustain that in 4.2, at least for longer than a couple months. That's really all I'm worried about.
Yes, Firelands is the raid in 4.2, and 7 is the total number of bosses.

We think 7 is our current ideal for number of bosses in a raid. (We launched Cataclysm with two full raids of 4-6 bosses each.) We're also spending a lot of time making the Firelands bosses as awesome as possible - - creating unique models, animations, effects, sounds, etc. etc. Previously a lot of bosses were larger versions of existing models, which was fine, but that tradeoff is made somewhere. We shift to making fewer but more epic boss fights and there's a tradeoff somewhere. We're concentrating our efforts into a smaller number of fights so that each fight is bigger and better, they're still obviously going to be extremely challenging, but once it is on farm you're not having to spend two, three, maybe four nights just to clear it because the raid is so huge.

Our ideal situation would, of course, be to launch as many raids as possible with this current ideal number of around 7 bosses, but that's not something we're ever going to promise. We'd love to be able to produce unlimited amounts of content anywhere, not just raids, for that matter. We think one raid per patch with around 7 bosses is a super solid experience, though, especially with how much effort is going into Firelands. We don't think anyone is going to be disappointed.

I'm sorry but a lot of us play this game to raid. We already lost the ability to run both 10-mans and 25-mans, sticking us in a raiding tier with only 7 bosses is just too little. It doesn't matter how cool the encounters are, we're still going to spend the same amount of time learning and defeating the encounters. ToC was a failure not only in its reused models, but for the fact that it only had 5 bosses. A typical raid week was finished in a little over an hour and it was the most boring wait between it and when ICC finally came out.

I'm not going to enjoy raiding for a few hours a week once this is on farm. Delay the patch if you need more time to create encounters, but don't give us something this small again. There's at least a half a dozen places that tie in with Cataclysm's lore that can be used as a second raid zone for tier 12.
Your patch preview sticky says that more information about Firelands coming in the weeks and months ahead. Which leads us to believe that we have some amount of time greater than a month to wait for 4.2.

That's 6-7 months after the release of the current raid content. At the earliest.

I'm sorry, but 7 bosses worth of content every 7 months is not acceptable to me. Especially after going a full year stuck on Icecrown Citadel.

I understand the reasons for wanting smaller raids, but I am not content to wait this long for raids with half the content of previous raid patches.

Give us some indication that you're able to provide these shorter raids on a quicker schedule and maybe I'll think better of this thing.

04/28/2011 05:34 PMPosted by Lore
I'd also really like to know who the hell is looking back so fondly at Sunwell. Everyone I know hated that instance -- and we were the top guild on the server.

It's the TBC effect. A great deal of people who look back fondly on something have never done it. I can't say if Sunwell was good as I never did it. Virtually no one did it. But, I do know class stacking happened, I do know that gating happened, I do know it was (even with gating) a far shorter raiding experience than tier 11.

Firelands has to be better than Ulduar (on a boss by boss basis), better than Kara and better than every othertier with more than 7 bosses in order to be equivalent. Is Firelands really that good? Only time can tell because all we have is a sentence for each boss, and a very short clip of lord A-unspellable.
Yes, Firelands is the raid in 4.2, and 7 is the total number of bosses.

We think 7 is our current ideal for number of bosses in a raid. (We launched Cataclysm with two full raids of 4-6 bosses each.) We're also spending a lot of time making the Firelands bosses as awesome as possible - - creating unique models, animations, effects, sounds, etc. etc. Previously a lot of bosses were larger versions of existing models, which was fine, but that tradeoff is made somewhere. We shift to making fewer but more epic boss fights and there's a tradeoff somewhere. We're concentrating our efforts into a smaller number of fights so that each fight is bigger and better, they're still obviously going to be extremely challenging, but once it is on farm you're not having to spend two, three, maybe four nights just to clear it because the raid is so huge.


So was the War of the Ancients raid scrapped then? Because if so then I am quite sad. :(
So to sum up this thread.

Most posters aren't expecting to be happy with the amount of raiding content their going to get for the wait since release.

Blizzard is telling them that Blizzard knows what they like better than they do.
So to sum up this thread.

Most posters aren't expecting to be happy with the amount of raiding content their going to get for the wait since release.

Blizzard is telling them that Blizzard knows what they like better than they do.

Which they do, but a lot of us are skeptical. Blizzard are the only ones that CAN know how good the content is. There is a big difference between skepticism and and being sure the content will be crap.
Lets say the content is the best this game has ever seen. But how awesome is it gonna be after a month of it on farm?
04/28/2011 06:40 PMPosted by Imnotblind
Which they do, but a lot of us are skeptical. Blizzard are the only ones that CAN know how good the content is. There is a big difference between skepticism and and being sure the content will be crap.


The most confusing part, is that they have all the feedback from previous expansions and tiers. They have the data on what was liked, what was disliked, what kept people renewing subscriptions, what brought people back to the game, and what drove them off. And yet the choices they make based upon this past data often make little sense to me, even from the standpoint of realizing their main goal will always be to keep the subscription numbers as high as possible.

And note that I'm talking about the real data from the corresponding timeframes, not rosecolored current remembrances.
Stick it to 'em straight, Bashiok. You're awesome.
So to sum up this thread.

Most posters aren't expecting to be happy with the amount of raiding content their going to get for the wait since release.

Blizzard is telling them that Blizzard knows what they like better than they do.

Which they do, but a lot of us are skeptical. Blizzard are the only ones that CAN know how good the content is. There is a big difference between skepticism and and being sure the content will be crap.


In general nobody is saying the content is crap

We are upset because of the absolute lack of raiding content.

When Firelands was delayed we lived with it because it was EXPECTED that it would be Firelands+

now we are stuck with all of 7 bosses, after having raided the same 12 for over half a year (by the time 4.2 is released)
Right, I get that. I'm just not seeing what the other stuff is going in that's resulting in what seems to be less content. It just looks like less content, which makes it seem like the finite pool of resources got smaller.

I'm really not trying to point fingers, I'm just trying to express the exasperation that myself and a lot of others are feeling. I've been a loyal supporter of Blizzard for a long time. Hell, I've hung out with you at Blizzcon. It just kinda feels like the push in Cataclysm has been moving away from what made me enjoy playing the game for so long, and I don't understand the reasons why.

I like raiding 4 days a week. Posts in here make it sound like there will not be enough content to sustain that in 4.2, at least for longer than a couple months. That's really all I'm worried about.


Well, I appreciate your continued inquisitiveness, it really makes the back and forth of a conversation that much more inviting. I do like talking to you guys when I'm able.

I think you're right, though. We've trended toward choosing quality over quantity with some of our content creation, and while that isn't usually a bad thing, it's rarely a good thing from a perception point of view. I think that's something we realize but - - and this is sort of a difficult concept to get across sometimes - - is that the game is... really big, and by the laws of physics really big things don't change direction very quickly. Depending on which part of the development team or individual developers you're talking about, they could be working on content we won't even announce until six months later. Maybe longer. That's just the necessity of our development to ensure we're getting patches and expansions out. So these types of evaluations of what direction the game is in and any changes or general philosophy we want to alter, we may begin making a course correction, but we're just not able to hit that new heading until the entire ship finishes turning. It's also not too rare that in the middle of altering our direction, we change our minds.

Anyway, I don't want that to be discouraging because it's not true of all things, but it is generally true of things like planning patch content which takes many, many months of development. And even then, like I said, things can change midway, but that's not always a bad thing.
So to sum up this thread.

Most posters aren't expecting to be happy with the amount of raiding content their going to get for the wait since release.

Blizzard is telling them that Blizzard knows what they like better than they do.

Which they do, but a lot of us are skeptical. Blizzard are the only ones that CAN know how good the content is. There is a big difference between skepticism and and being sure the content will be crap.


I disagree, they actually dont. We are the player base who play the game they design, when have we ever been skeptical and been proved wrong. Why would it be good for us to have less time spent on raiding, if thats what you want to do.

Imagine if they only let PvP'ers do 30 BG's a week. Thats similar to what they would be doing to raiders with little content available. It wouldnt end well would it. There are alot of people who like Progression raiding. Are they now telling us Progression raiding is dead.

EDIT: OK a bit over the top but my point is there. Once people are done with only 7 bosses it will be a long long wait till 4.3 id imagine. Less content has never been a good thing.
I'm still curious about if they have any ideas of how to alleviate the RNG nightmare of loot on 10man compared to 25man. With fewer bosses in a raid tier, there will be more items per boss that can drop, which means with fewer drops on 10man it will take forever to see some pieces.

My previous example of killing Halfus 19 times while still having never seen plate bracers, plate shoulders, and only one Malevolence is a nightmare. Fewer bosses will only make this worse...
I have a question. With fewer bosses there will be a larger spread of gear on those bosses. Is there is intent on possibly alleviating RNG for 10-mans? It's already ridiculously easier to gear a 25man raid group than a 10man because so often items in 10-man will just be disenchanted. Having a smaller chance for each item to drop makes it harder to gear a 10man raid and having more loot per boss will only increase that (extremely frustrating) part of RNG.

A short example: Our raid is 5/13 HM, and has two hunters and a feral druid. We've downed Halfus (normal and heroic combined) 19 times now and have only see one Malevolence, which wasn't until our 7th or so heroic kill. 19 times and the hunters still don't have one. We also have never seen the plate bracers or plate shoulders (normal or heroic) from him. And this is just one boss. =/


Don't worry bout that, since the resources are so limited all bosses will just drop 3 "lewts" which you can turn into a vendor for "stats"
04/28/2011 06:51 PMPosted by Ajaxis
We are the player base who play the game they design, when have we ever been skeptical and been proved wrong.


Literally every patch. On hundreds of individual changes. #justsaying
Something that wasn't addressed in the preview or cast was the loot model. There will be a little over half as many bosses in 4.2 so what does that mean for gearing? Will the bosses drop more items or the same-ish amount of items and gearing will take twice as long in firelands? Will the loot tables per boss grow in size as well or will the total amount of pieces slim down to compensate for there being 7 bosses?

One model that I would love to see again is the Ulduar choose your own difficulty scenario. Where a raid could choose between one of maybe two to four different difficulties specific to each encounter (towers, guardians, etc.) and increase the amount/quality of drops proportionately.

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