Why is research required for this game?

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LFD is not your personal playground. It matches you with 4 other actual players across other servers. The majority expectation of LFD is that you know how to play your class and to know the fights, whether that means having looked them up or having cleared them. In other words, guilds and friends are for learning fights, LFD PUGs are for clearing dungeons fast.

What you have to remember when queuing in LFD is that the people there expect to clear what they're doing and most of them want to faceroll it. If they've already done ZG or ZA, then they're progressed past that content and they resent wiping on it constantly, not because there's someone who hasn't been there before but because that person didn't bother to learn anything at all about it. It might be fun for you to learn new bosses by doing them, but the other people in that group aren't there to learn it.

You really have no clue, do you?

Want to faceroll content? Do it in a guild or friends run.

Expecting people to be completely up to date in a PuG is frankly, stupid. It has never been that way. It will never be that way.

If you're too elitist to explain a fight or ask if everybody knows it, stay out of the RDF.
But the information you need to be successful in your role is really all in the game.

Implement meters in the default interface and then this might be true. It would still be more efficient for most players to find someone who has already modeled and tested their rotation, talent spec, glyphs, enchants, gems, stat reforging, and gear outside of the game, but at least with meters they would have a chance to see what their dps/hps/tps/survivability/overhealing is and compare it.

Without any reasonable way to measure their performance though it isn't true that all you need to be successful is in the game, unless you and I have a different definition of success.
Dungeon Journal! DO WANT! NAO!

(lol.. but yes, it's about damn time...)
Personally I think that the OP is right.

And everyone here knows that if a new or returning player hit 85 today without "researching" the dungeons before going in them they'll be yelled at, insulted, and ridiculed just before being kicked. All because you're a "baddie" that didn't take time to look up every encounter in the game before setting foot in a 5 man.

And if you think that the grief from not knowing every little mechanism isn't bad enough... heaven forbid that you haven't specced, glyphed, gemmed, and enchanted exactly the way some number cruncher's spread sheet says is the only way to play your spec/class.

Yeah, the OP is right.
04/28/2011 11:09 AMPosted by Lourdes
Why do people just dismiss others by saying "look it up on wowhead/mmo-champion/wowwiki/elitest jerks/etc"?

You like asking questions? Ask wowhead/mmo-champion/wowwiki/elitest jerks/etc cuzz I'm not an answer bot.
Simple question, simple answer.
Depends on the level of research your asking about.

Exact rating => point conversion? Look it up. Your at that level. However, until you reach this stage, you just need to know how to mouse over a stat in the character window - make it as close to 0% as possible, your golden.

Best talent build? Look it up. It'll take too long for me to tell you every talent to take.

Rotation? easier if you look it up, as these days there's a lot of "do this when.." stuff.

Items in an instance? Look it up. Too large. You can get in game loot browsers which do the job, and don't require me to link every single item to you.

Boss strats? This is mostly because seeing the fight makes it a lot easier to understand. This is a needed for raiding(and I'd say ZA/ZG right now too) because there is so much going on, reading it all is overwhelming - you will forget most of what you're told. In leveling content it's pretty easy to say "Kill adds, then boss". You'll find most people hate answering this question because you tell someone this, then they just sit on the boss all fight. Heroics, you can do it a few times on normal, then spend 30 seconds on wowhead to see the new heroic additions and your set.

Frankly, research isn't required to play - it's required to not to make everyone else's life harder because you still won't listen after we explain it to you.

The games you're thinking off aren't as complex or involved as wow, either - guarantee it. I wouldn't expect someone to study for a primary school test, but uni? Sure. Study that stuff like it's a paladin on nerf day: TO THE GROUND! Remember relativity before drawing comparisons(If you'd studied more in math... /cackle).

^ This.

& to add: it RARELY ends at just "one" question too-for MANY people (mind you, im not saying all) however, ive known more than not in my years of playing that when it comes to mechanics, professions, talent builds, etc. when you answer one semi involved question, its becomes MULTIPLE, then i say: seriously, go look it up. im not your personal encyclopaedia & please dont abuse the fact that i have read up on these things to be too lazy to do so. It doesnt take that much time.

are you someone who asks 8,000 questions or was this 1 simple question? be honest with yourself. If its the latter, then id say it was potentially rude; unless you were asking how to down all the bosses in BWD...

It's not going to tell you how to beat the fight, but it's going to tell you what kind of abilities the boss will be using against you. You'll just have to figure out with your party or raid how to deal with those abilities when they're used.

However, (and unfortunately) the expectation is for everyone to KNOW the fight to beat
the boss. If this is not in the journal, then its useless. People ARE REQUIRED to
do research to meet expectations for the raid or even pvp. I am not dissing it ... we want an
intelligent game ... well then we need to use knowledge to play it. Anyone wants it
brainless then go play Space Invaders.

& here id thought this was an april fools joke...imo part of the FUN is going to wowhead & researching it. *facepalm*
If you want to reach the maximum potential of your class, sure, there are number crunchers out there who will tell you the best talent and stat choices to make, spell/ability rotations, etc. But the information you need to be successful in your role is really all in the game
When it comes to raid boss encounters, many of them seem to be tuned to demand optimal performance from each player - they are tuned around the known existence of the number crunchers and various addons. You can't get away with just mashing buttons.

When I see someone casting Blizzard on a single target, I know that player is just mashing buttons and/or casting the spells they think look cool, rather than what is effective. The group will typically fail as a result, and I resent the task falling on me to teach them (which they also resent because unsolicited advice is often unwelcome) and IMO the class trainers should do more training than just writing spells into your spellbook for you.

On my rogue, which is a better finishing move: envenom, eviscerate, or rupture? Why do I even have to ask that here? My rogue trainer should tell me what makes one better than another or anything about how to approach making that decision. There's not enough info in the tooltip alone and I need to run recount to optimize my performance or raid groups and even dungeon pugs won't want me there.

THATS prolly imo, the BEST idea ive heard yet! Rather than just "putting it in some book"..blah..have the TRAINERS teach it! Hows that for adding to the ROLE PLAYING factor?! Immersion! Mmhm! i love it! =D
04/28/2011 03:46 PMPosted by Allene

If all you do is quest and level, sure you have all the information you need.

Please provide a single example of information that can only be obtained by researching outside of the game.

Windfury Internal Cooldown.

I agree with the OP, and I have min maxed the hell out of this game and has spreadsheets with data all over the place. Its just so fast to do these days with ask mr. robot and so on and just checking a spec really quick, but it would be best if it could just be eliminated entirely.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but this just happened yesterday with me, and I think it's relevant.

I queue for randoms on my 72 rogue, we get Azjol-Nerub. Now I don't know what the story was with this guy. Maybe he was new to tanking. Maybe he had never done Azjol-Nerub. Maybe his only experience with Azjol-Nerub was as a frost daily where you really could charge right in and smash everything. Regardless, whatever experience he had in this game thus far, he was not prepared for little old normal-difficulty Azjol-Nerub.

We got to the the first boss, the boss where first you kill the three waves of adds. He just charged right into the middle pack of mobs, in doing so pulling all three packs, wiping us. The healer instantly dropped after commenting about how awful a tank he was. Dropping the group crossed my mind as well, but I figured he wasn't a lost cause yet. He might just need an explanation.

So I explain to him to first just engage the pack of mobs on the left, and then let the mobs come to us, that it's kind of an automated event. I knew this because I could probably run any WotLK 5-man you asked me to with my monitor turned off, but now that I think about it, how was he supposed to know?

We get to Hadronox. Again, he just goes right down there and starts killing all of the mobs. "You can't do that. If you engage Hadronox before she seals the two doors, she'll bug. The doors won't be sealed, the adds will just keep coming, and she'll never die."

How was he supposed to know that? He sees things to kill, so he goes and kills them. How was he supposed to know we're supposed to wait up top and watch the show as Hadronox makes her slow progress upward to us, as a mob or two comes after us periodically in the meantime? How was he supposed to know that engaging Hadronox BEFORE she seals the doors is the hardmode that gets you an achievement?
I research my class so I can be the best at it. I don't research boss fights or run boss mods, and I raid lead one of the top guilds on my server. Its fun to run with a group of people that don't need to be told to move out of the fire or interrupt that cast, etc.

As far as not answering peoples' questions... well... a lot of people don't know they are doing anything wrong. They don't run a DPS meter to see they are pulling sub-par numbers. I inspect every mage I pug with, usually BH, and help them fix their stat priority and whatever else needs work.

A lot of people react negatively to that, and those are the bads of the server IMO. They refuse to get better. On the other hand I've made a lot of mages better.

If everyone did this you may just increase your raiding population capable of heroics. Back in vanilla I was a keyboard-turning, clicking noob that raiding as fire in MC. Now, imo, I'm one of the top few mages on my server.
You don't really need to research much these days to just play. It is only required for min/maxing.

If by "min/maxing" you mean "not getting kicked from 5man pugs"...

This. Maybe I really was just that bad, but when I hit 80 on my first shaman, I kept getting kicked from 5-mans because my dps wasn't high enough. I don't know how much of a difference it makes with other specs, but with enhancement, if you weren't playing your priority rotation to the letter, your dps was halved and then possibly halved again. I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes with other specs or classes because I never made this mistake again.

I thought gemming for agility was best. Agility was my best stat, after all. Turns out that was completely wrong.

I thought using two Windfury enchants was best, because even though Flametongue boosted Lava Lash, Lava Lash... even with Flametongue boosting Lava Lash, in WotLK Lava Lash was still a tiny fraction of an enhancement shaman's dps. I had no idea there was no point in having two Windfury enchants because of Windfury's internal cooldown. Nothing in the tooltip said anything about once upon a time Windfury being ninja nerfed. To this day, the tooltip still says nothing about an internal cooldown. That is something you will only learn either by somebody telling you or doing some outside research.

At the time when I first hit 80 on her, an offhand caster weapon was best. A caster weapon? But that's for casters! I'm not a caster! I'm melee dps! Where in the game is it written that sometimes shamans don't scale "as intended" and funky things happen like caster weapons being not just marginally, but vastly superior to melee weapons as far as dps is concerned? I don't remember reading that when I created the character, and my shaman trainer hadn't left Orgrimmar in years so she had no idea either.

Oh, and I almost forgot. How could I forget this? Searing Totem vs Magma Totem in WotLK. How many instances can you think of in this game where using an AoE ability vs a single-target ability on a single target was better for dps? Probably not many. But that's just how it was. Magma Totem, an AoE totem, was better for dps even on a single-target than the single-target dps totem.

And lastly, this is something a lot of people never think about depending on how long they've known about it, but..

Where in the game does it tell melee dps to stand behind the boss???

Its because people make posts, asking questions or offering up longtime "already known and dead issue" suggestions, when they could make a 1.5 second search in "Google" instead.

You are, by definition, playing an ONLINE game with an ONLINE connection and the world at your fingertips (via a "web browser." )

That is why.

Its like today, someone asked in the prof forums how to switch from goblin to gnome engineering, or the reverse:


"wow gnome and goblin engineering"

wowwiki page

found, in about 3 seconds.
coming in patch 4.2. Once we're able to catalog more of our dungeons in this journal, you'll get a lot of essential information for each boss fight. It's not going to tell you how to beat the fight, but it's going to tell you what kind of abilities the boss will be using against you...

Hurray, I always wanted something like this to be implemented !

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