Coming in 4.2: the Dungeon Journal

General Discussion
Prev 1 11 12 13 17 Next
Since very high end guilds are complaining about the dungeon journal taking away the fun of competitive raiding to be world/server firsts, I think a great idea would be instead of providing all the info you need to know about a boss before you even pull him, have the dungeon journal act like an actual journal to where AS you encounter different abilities on a boss, the journal will keep note of that and you would get some limited insight into the abilities. That way, you could satisfy the more casual guilds progression rate without upsetting the hardcore raider's race for world/server firsts and having them say it was 'too easy of a tier'
I as a casual raider I even dislike what you have done here. I am the gm of my guild and have decided to not even try to build it back into a raiding guild cause it'll be pointless. You are taking the fun of learning out of it. If you truly care about your player base stop holding peoples hands that is not your job if they suck at your game that's their problem not yours.
all i gotta say is gratz blizz you guys have just managed to kill off most your player base with the dungeon journal and its beyond to late to repair the damage gratz.

and i think trion is gonna want to have your babys with all the subs you just gave them
Blizzard, what are you doing?

World of Warcraft is my favourite game. Why?

Wow is my favourite game because I enjoy end game PvE, now, I'm no hardcore raider, I'm not even in a raiding guild but this is just ridiculous. I enjoy the PvE because of its awesome strategies, WHICH I FIND OUT MYSELF! I don't want a journal telling me what to do.
This is pretty much getting a chocolate coated donut and shoving it in dirt. You don't need to hold our hands, it's boring.
If you do put this journal out, I for one will be removing myself from your subscribers.
I just can't get over how STUPID this idea is, if people suck at the game, why should you ruin it for your better players?
Not to mention your ruining things like www.wowhead.com and www.wowpedia.com, I'm not sure if you care about that but they will die because of this.

This. Is. Disgusting.
And what about the whole sense of adventure?
I love logging into the game on my character and feeling the sense of exploration and achieving things on my character.

I walk into a raid and look at someone like Nefarian and I soak in the sense of adventure, "I'm going to fight some massive dude with 9 or 24 other people, we need to figure out what he does and then devise a strategy to counter his abilities"

This dungeon journal will totally ruin that for me. Not to mention the socializing that WoW brings, you can say goodbye to that... What's the point in chatting to other players, and talking over ventrilo? There isn't one now when Blizzard are holding your hands while your going into the fight.

Please Blizzard, scrap this!
I'm not saying this to be a prude or anything, but you do always have the option of NOT LOOKING at the dungeon journal.....just saying.
That maybe true but that doesn't account for someone else in the group looking at it and saying things from it that others don't wanna know until they are actually fighting the boss. The main fact is by bringing this in to the extent that they are is ruining most of what the players like about raiding. They didn't think this thing through enough for the long run and will probably suffer in the long run if they won't take advice from the people that pay to play their game
Would be cool if we could add notes to each encounter for later reference.

05/19/2011 11:15 AMPosted by Soulshart
I'm not saying this to be a prude or anything, but you do always have the option of NOT LOOKING at the dungeon journal.....just saying.


and in a 25 man raid, especially after a few wipes, how long do you think that will last?
This one is going to be a bit long, if all you see if a wall of text, scroll to the bottom.

I really don't like the level of detail the Journal goes into. I don't think it should have enough information that someone with any decent raid experience can go through and formulate a strategy without ever having to have set foot in the instance. Having the information from tooltips would be fine. But there are also suggestions on what to do with adds, or how to deal with certain abilities. Even when things are not explicitly explained as a How To, there is enough information that logically anybody would link things together and see a strategy laid out in front of them.

For those that enjoy going into an encounter not having any idea of what is coming, this ruins that entire aspect of the game for them. I feel bad for those that play WoW solely for this aspect of raiding.

As, I believe someone from Paragon suggested, it would be great if the Journal was somehow gated. For instance, each boss was locked until someone had downed the boss on the server. This would enable those who wished to do the encounter without the information could do so. It would also uphold the integrity of server firsts.

Also, when the Journal was first announced there was a lot of stress on the fact that there would be information on lore. From all the screenshots, and information thus far on the current implementation of the Journal it doesn't seem that there has been any addition of lore at all. There is still now, why are we here to kill this mob, answers. That was the entire reason I was interested in this feature at all. Hopefully, it just hasn't been added in the PTR and it will be in the final version when the feature goes live.

Finally, the main thing that worries me about the Journal is that it does take out that first main step to raiding. This worry isn't because it takes away the fun of that aspect, as I discussed in the first part of this post, but because of the time lost during that learning phase. Since strategies will be so easy to learn, it also warrants that it will take raiders less time to finally be able to execute those strategies. This means that people will go through raiding content faster. Already, people complain that end game content is lacking. By giving raiders a way to burn through the already limited content it just means they will burn out faster.

Thank you for those that took the time to read this quite lengthy post. For those that don't have a long enough attention span:

TL;DR
1) Too much info in the Journal; sorry to those who liked the unknown.
2) Gating the information on bosses until after server firsts would be a great addition.
3) Wasn't there supposed to be an added lore feature? Why am I here? Why am I killing this boss?
4) Journal in current form will allow players to burn through content even faster.
Honestly, the hand-holding that seems to be taking place is just sickening. I'm not a die-hard, I consider myself very casual, and I only started with Cata, but this kind of "Easy Button" mentality will seriously just kill the game for me. Where's the challenge? This basically turns it into a big roulette wheel, where the only question is, "Will your PUGs have players who are f***-ups?" That's not fun, that's not something for which I'd want to pay ~15$ a month. Bye-bye WoW, hello Rift.

They still have a chance to fix this, scrap this dungeon journal nonsense as it is in its current form, and also solve one of their biggest problems, IMHO, regarding the relative pointlessness that is archeology. Why not expand archeology so you can uncover details about the endgame PVE content, so it's rich with lore, but contains clues for the astute reader about the baddies in store? I'd suggest making some archeology quest chains or general quest chains that can eventually unlock cinematics that hint at what's to come. Hell, even if they wanted it to be general quest chains, I don't care. But don't take away the challenge of figuring out how stuff works, don't turn this into mindless clicking competition. Blizzard, if you want to do the journal thing, at least ask yourself, "What does this add to the game?" If the answer is nothing, or you can't answer that, then get back to the drawing board.
05/19/2011 11:15 AMPosted by Soulshart
I'm not saying this to be a prude or anything, but you do always have the option of NOT LOOKING at the dungeon journal.....just saying.


Well you sort of don't have the option to be perfectly honest - in a competitive raiding perspective.

I saw a post on a video about this and thought it summed it up just about perfectly.

"Imagine if there was a new rule added to golf that you could pick up your ball, walk any distance, and put it down wherever you felt like it. Do you think Tiger Woods would continue to play normally while he’s losing every single tournament to people using the new rule? Do you think anyone would continue to sponsor such tournaments? It would kill the competitive nature of the game. This is the same exact concept."

Read that and tell me you still think it is a good idea, or at least tell me that it wouldn't ruin the competitive nature of the game - which is pretty much wow, achieving and competing.
Honestly, the hand-holding that seems to be taking place is just sickening. I'm not a die-hard, I consider myself very casual, and I only started with Cata, but this kind of "Easy Button" mentality will seriously just kill the game for me. Where's the challenge? This basically turns it into a big roulette wheel, where the only question is, "Will your PUGs have players who are f***-ups?" That's not fun, that's not something for which I'd want to pay ~15$ a month.

They still have a chance to fix this, scrap this dungeon journal nonsense as it is in its current form, and also solve one of their biggest problems, IMHO, regarding the relative pointlessness that is archeology. Why not expand archeology so you can uncover details about the endgame PVE content, so it's rich with lore, but contains clues for the astute reader about the baddies in store? I'd suggest making some archeology quest chains or general quest chains that can eventually unlock cinematics that hint at what's to come. Hell, even if they wanted it to be general quest chains, I don't care. But don't take away the challenge of figuring out how stuff works, don't turn this into mindless clicking competition. Blizzard, if you want to do the journal thing, at least ask yourself, "What does this add to the game?" If the answer is nothing, or you can't answer that, then get back to the drawing board.



This is an excellent way to view what the Dungeon Journal should be. Coming from another semi-hardcore raider such as yours truly, I find that something as....revealing as this feature just sucks the absolute fun out of it, and that fun is seeing what bosses can do and how you should deal with them. I even find addons like BigWigs, Deadly Boss Mods and such to be Easy Mode features, but I only use them out of principle. If I feel that I know a boss to such a point that I can do the "dance" in my sleep, I turn that Boss Mod off, save small notifications. Yes, their semi-vague nature still keeps a challenge curve in there and have a loud reminder on what to do (i.e if something is being pointed at you), but this just eliminates the need for such a tool. This is the new "I.W.I.N. Button", plain and simple.

I ENJOY challenges. I like it when something kicks my ass and forces me to look at what I was doing and figure out what's going on, which is why I decided to continue into Cataclysm because I heard that endgame raiding was on a swing back to the harder encounters like the late half of Ulduar or back in BC. It's why I have games like Super Meat Boy or Devil May Cry 3, they kicked my ass and forced me to actually figure out how to play rather than mashing my face into the controls and hope something good comes of it.

Building on Kagiimar's idea, the direction seems like a good one. (BTW, great stuff, Kag). The Encounter Journal I believe should be more in a poetic manner rather than doing it "Prima Games" style, and just flat out telling you what a boss does. The player, if he or she is an Archaeologist, will be able to see a dead Adventurer lying on the ground with the classic "!" quest market above its head. Contained in this quest would be a short, but semi-detailed story-like account of what the former dungeoneer had seen leading up to his/her demise. The language used would be descriptive, but not entirely detailed of what would happen during the escapade. You would obviously leave out details like damage coefficients and such, but still have small tooltips so players (or raid leaders for that matter) could link the attack/phase description to the party so that they may know what's going on. As players "collect" journal entries, they would be contained in a sub-tab of the Archaeology spellbook that would read like a Quest Log almost. If players defeat the boss described in an entry, they would complete the quest and obtain a slightly more detailed version of this encounter, but it would still be vague enough to keep the encounter interesting in case they need to re-reference the description in the future. Maybe to keep things spiced up as hints, you could decorate pages with damage based on what type they deal, like maybe High-Priest Venoxis' entry would have small parts of the description scratched out by holes in the page from acidic venom or Ragnaros' encounter would have a part of the page scorched away.

But it all bleeds down to this. In a very blunt statement, you're killing the difficulty curve and making it a flat plateau almost any player could work their way up to. Even Heroic Modes are going to be a dead art because of this feature. If you back off the descriptive nature of the entries, you could still have a nice way for players to access information, but maintain immersion within the game, rather than handing victory to everyone on a silver platter, which is how a majority of Wrath of the Lich King was. I'd still say keep details such as loot tables or maybe just a health bar available, but don't reveal every single detail to us. Discovery is half the fun of raids. Don't make it just execution. Research, rehearse, and execute. The research doesn't have to be an automatic win, just a little tidbit of help so that the rookies could get a hang of the battle faster.
Don't get me wrong, in it's current state, I think the dungeon journal is wrong in that it explains WAAAAYYYY too much of a fight even before you pull the boss. Perhaps my saying that you have the option of not looking at it is turning the other cheek to the fact that people are going to look at it anyways, even if you tell them please not too. Again, as I said in an earlier post, I'm not opposed to having your own personal journal where when you encounter different abilities on a boss, you will get a brief tooltip saying i.e. so and so debuff is causing 8k dps, and as you figure out what happens when you dispel it or where you should dispel it(from multiple pulls), the journal would say (once you've figured out the mechanic entirely that is) exactly what it does. For instance, val n theralion fight, blackout is a debuff you get that needs to be dispelled, but at first pull, your dungeon journal would only say 'person gets debuff and died when you dispelled it'. Essentially it would be a simpler mode combat log without scrolling up and up to see exactly what happened to you, and plus if you're bringing someone new to your raid and you don't feel like explaining every last detail to the person, you can share your journal with them. My idea of this may not be perfect, but as a person who has no desire to even try to compete with other guilds at server first, I would perhaps just be using my dungeon journal instead of watching tankspot.com vids (which, by the way, also give strategy and not just what's happening)
This is the most ridiculous idea blizzard has ever implemented. It likely was implemented under the impression that the casual raider would be pleased. This because very casual players that do not raid and very rarely do dungeons would not be affected, and the hardcore top tier guilds enjoyed the sport of discovering and progressing through new encounters in a competitive fashion. I, as a casual raider, absoultely hated this change and will probably not enjoy the next tier of content as much as i could, if at all. I cant tell how representative i can be of the entire comunity of casual raiders, but its hard to beleive anyone can enjoy this amount of information. In fact, no information at all would be ideal. How can someone still enjoy the game if there is no discovery, no challenge, no feeling of acomplishment?
This was dissapointing and imho, you might as well not launch firelands at all after this, its completely ruined.
As convenient, and nice as this Dungeon Journal is and looks, Blizzard has broken there own words in it.
For example, while the Dungeon Journal might say something like "This ability will cause all players in the affected area to take damage," it won’t say anything explicit like "All players except the tank should stand behind the boss during his Shield phase."


I've taken a personal look at this dungeon journal, and clearly this guide is more explicit then you claim it to be. Of course it would be unfair for me to make such claims without giving some evidence. So a good example I found was from Gamebreaker.TV's Lore, also known from Tankspot/ZamOfficial. He clearly pointed out in one of the Dungeon Journal entry's for the Firelands it showed exactly what you said it wouldn't. It gave specific instructions to tank some adds away from the raid or the raid will take damage. Obviously this completely contradicts what you said earlier.
it won’t say anything explicit like "All players except the tank should stand behind the boss during his Shield phase."


Blizzard, we do appreciate this Dungeon Journal, atleast I do. But personally my suggestion to you guys is to keep it in the 5mans, or make it more brief and less specific as you said you would. As a former " Hardcore " raider, you're killing one of the major elements that drove me to enjoy being a " Hardcore " raider by giving us such information. Please leave it to Tankspot ect...to do these raid guides. Do not waste good employee time on this. This is not a issue, and there are many more things that personally I believe your employees could spend time on constructively. (This is just my personal opinion though).

As Lore stated on the most recent Legendary Live Show this Dungeon Journal, hurts websites like Wowpedia, and Wowhead. Not only this but we've all seen the posts from players from world top guilds such as " Ensida, For The Horde, and Paragon " clearly stating that this Dungeon Journal will destroy a major element of " The Race to World 1st ".

So to sum up what I'm saying, Blizzard stick with your original statement, keep it brief and nice. I'm glad to see this was on the PTR before it hit live so it can be fixed before its released to all 11.4 million subscribers. Don't waste your employees time working on making this dungeon journal anymore explicit/specific, if anything make it LESS explicit. Please do not add and try to fix what is not broken or improve it.

Once again these are just my OPINIONS and I do not speak for the whole WoW playerbase, but I hope my feedback is taken serious and is looked into. Thanks!


Yep, sums up my thoughts.
05/02/2011 09:55 AMPosted by Barand
Oh yes, lets just remove loot from wow hell why not remove item s altogether because upgrading is hard and takes too much time and WHY do i always have to remember so many fights and press SO many buttons!?!

Is that really what you gleaned from this? It makes no sense that can repeatedly get the mace from Magmaw and never get the chest or bracers to drop (13 weeks!). It's not about removing loot, it's about making loot not a waste or a letdown.


Now its about not catering to people that ONLY PLAY FOR LOOT. That is part of the game a "CHANCE" to get a piece of gear when you kill something, not a guarnatteed, "I GET WHAT I WANT".

Part of the challenge and lure is get people to go in week after week, get better at the bosses, have a chane to get their gear. The game already caters to the casuals players so much its sickening, catering to them anymore would be absolutely retarded.
So now noobs dont even have to know how to use google anymore. So cool!

Just kidding. This sounds dumb. There's plenty of online resources already. Don't coddle the players by putting the walkthrough directly in the game


You mistake this implementation as a walk-through. While you will be told the items and abilities the boss will employ, it will not tell you when, how much damage, where to stand etc. This is merely an extra in-game tool to help players get into the encounters, understand them a little better, and enjoy them. The ability to take down the boss is still soundly within player hands and abilities.


The whole point is - there is NO MORE DISCOVERY LEFT to do, you've put it all in. Where is the fun in going in and trying the boss WITHOUT know what they will do, now you tell them what they do per phase, really? You don't think that is coddling just a bit too much? Big deal if we know what is coming its pretty easy to formulate a plan. "when this lands here it radiates out in a cone shape that does massive damage" Guess what? If your not a causal player you will get the idea that you should move away from it, you might not have to say it specifically but the description alone is enough. Stop runing the game for those that enjoy it to cater to those that just insit on everything being handed to them. Want to know why you lost 600k subscribes, cause of junk like this and the constant homogenizing of the game and the constant dumbing down to cater to those that care about anuything but their welfare epics. When will people and Blizzard finally wake up and understand this. Stop doing the game down and make people LEARN to play instead. The rest of us took our time to learn when WoW came out, why can't the facebook players do the same.
I would just like to thank blizzard for doing what they always do. I have noticed that over time blizzard notices that a large group of the players use a certain addon, over time blizz implements that addon into the core ui of the game. such as omen, atlas dungeon maps, questhelper, and so on. with this dungeon journal we now have a spoiler safe version of bosstactics and atlas loot rolled into one.


great job guys and keep up the good work.
05/02/2011 09:55 AMPosted by Barand
Oh yes, lets just remove loot from wow hell why not remove item s altogether because upgrading is hard and takes too much time and WHY do i always have to remember so many fights and press SO many buttons!?!

Is that really what you gleaned from this? It makes no sense that can repeatedly get the mace from Magmaw and never get the chest or bracers to drop (13 weeks!). It's not about removing loot, it's about making loot not a waste or a letdown.
This is a terrible idea. The whole point of random drops is to kill the bosses enough so that everyone in your guild finally gets that desired piece of loot. If bosses just drop a "token" this removes that satisfaction and feels like just handing people things.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum