Coming in 4.2: the Dungeon Journal

General Discussion
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their not too embarressed. they just dont want to get verbally abused, belittled, or kicked so they would rather wait till the others clue in and then get abused, belittled and kicked.
Good feature incoming! This game continues to gain new and useful tools for educating the masses and making PvE life a little easier.

Its a shame the only reason its being implemented is because most of this games players are totally intolerant of new players and this is the only way to easily teach new people about encounters without having to expose them to large groups of elitist asshats who are more keen on ripping them new asses than actually passing on useful information.
Since it's too late to take this information back, Blizzard has made a very clear statement:
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.

I think that is the bottom line when I saw the Dungeon Journal. The fun part of raiding is the actual learning of the mechanics and getting pounded a few times just to later adapt to the mechanics and get to that next phase. The boring part is the execution...which everyone should know already. Examples: don't stand in stuff that deals damage; don't stand in front or behind the dragon; if you don't heal the tank, then the tank will die; don't pull threat off of the tank; etc.

Yes ability names are data mined and placed in third party websites. There are even strat videos. But did you know how they got there? Raiders actually did the fight by discovering what the boss did and wiping to those mechanics until they later adapt to the mechanics and are able to continue the fight. That's how I learned and appreciated the fights up to this point. Blizzard at this point went beyond just data mining abilities even before doing the fights on the PTR. The DJ just gives more detail than necessary. So I could just look up a boss in Firelands, learn what each ability does per phase, and basically can tell the guild how to do this fight without ever doing the fight. So with the discovery and inventiveness basically handed to you (the fun part of raiding) you only have to do the boring part which is the execution of the fight. That's not how I approach encounters.

Note that Blizzard isn't telling you where to stand and such (even though I saw some of those details like what you should do with the adds before some details were cut back), just reading the abilities and when adds will spawn indirectly tells you what to do.

Saying things like "if you don't want to use DJ, then don't" is not that simple. The raid leader can tell his/her raiders to not look at the DJ in order to learn the fight, but the truth is that SOMEONE will look at the DJ and take the first two parts away from the raiding experience (discovery and inventiveness).

Having all of the bosses shown in 4.2 is not a good idea. They should gate the bosses out so that when a raid experiences an ability or gets to the next phase, that part becomes unlocked. If they wipe, then they can look it up without looking ahead and killing the discovery of the instance.

Or better yet, just leave DJ only to the 5-mans and future nerfed normal raid content like the nerfed T11 normal instances. Good raiders learn the fight by wiping to mechanics and adapting. Not being hand-held by the amount of detail that the DJ in the PTR actually gives.

Solving the unknown puzzle is a much more interesting concept than the actual simple execution.

I'm done ranting.
jesus christ how much easier does blizzard plan on making this damn game. this game has no challenge anymore. pretty soon ur gonna be able to set your toon to auto dps. This game is getting sad.
This is the same as always. Lol. Blizzard keeps a very close eye on the UI and addon in general scene, I am sure, and they always bring in ideas that have already been done. It's great, though, and makes things a lot easier for the inexperienced, or the forgetful! :) Also reducing addon resources is cool. I'm just saying however that I expected this. RobsBossMods is something I just got, and it eliminates the need for it. As well as Atlas Loot. Now maybe if woW would change their unit frames I could get rid of Xperl also. >>
who does a raid beforehand without knowing the fight anymore? unless you want to be carried...

the fun of discovery my ass. This is a good idea, dont ruin it with all ur elitism.
i like it it will get rid of the addon atlass loot so less crap that i will have running while i play they just need a beter version of ingame dbm so i can get rid of that addon as well
06/04/2011 11:04 PMPosted by Illstandback
jesus christ how much easier does blizzard plan on making this damn game. this game has no challenge anymore. pretty soon ur gonna be able to set your toon to auto dps. This game is getting sad.

You have progressed beyond WoW. Pass Go, Collect $200 and move on to Rift. After 3 years, I'm still learning and having fun here.
05/25/2011 06:24 AMPosted by Thebigbad
Starwars is on the horizon, Rift is out and doing very well and at an under-cutter's rate. Who's to say that with the addon of other MMORPG's that WOW won't go the way of the AOC dodo bird. Making bad decisions like throwing us rehashed crappy content, taking away whats fun enjoyable

(.... and the rest of your rant).... Go play them. Please. Hotheads like you ruin the game for all us nice folks who are here to have some good times, laughs/victories with friends, and see the pretty colors.
Hey, as part of the feature, does the Dungeon Journal automatically pop up onto your screen and refuse to go away until you at least pretend to read it when you get to a raid boss you've never killed?
05/20/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Whizflash
you're killing the difficulty curve and making it a flat plateau almost any player could work their way up to

YAY! Why should you and your kind be the only ones who get to play? I pay the same fee you do.

A little? Your writers have written entire books about WoW, i think you can do better than just "a little".

There has to be a certain balance between the amount of information shared. We want to make sure that what we're sharing is of value to those interested in it, without it being "tldr" for others. We want people interested, we just don't want to overwhelm people either. We'll see how it goes though.

Glad you are trying.
Sounds like a cross between Tankspot and atlas loot....hmmmm nice.
This is a great idea, however, when are we going to have the time to read it while in the dungeon? It's hard enough to get a group to slow down enough just to loot never mind for someone new in a dungeon to actually read the notes. For that matter, too many groups don't even allow time for a player to buff up or eat, even after death. How in the world can you convince them to allow a player to read the notes? (I'm talking about randoms of course, not guild runs).

I do like the idea though. It's far better than tabbing out of WoW to look at Wowhead's notes on a particular dungeon and the hundreds of comments with additional info, and then tabbing back in.

As for the looting issue, I, too, have had many problems with getting specific loot from a boss, even after repeatedly beating him. The times when it does actually drop, I never win the roll - even if I need it. The tokens would allow me to purchase what I need in that specific group of items. Of course, I still need to win the roll for the tokens. The down part of this type of looting system is that everyone would need the roll because there would be a number of items that you could purchase with the tokens, thus making it harder to win the roll. A promising idea to consider and work on though.
I don't think this is killing the difficulty curve. Telling players what a mob's abilities are does not mean that player will figure out how to deal with the mob in order to beat him. They've already made it clear that the journal is not telling us how to beat the mob, it will just give info on abilities and loot. We still have to figure out the rest ourselves through trial and error. Plus, it will help players who are noobs to the dungeon understand what abilities to expect from a mob, rather than expecting the dungeon-leader to explain every fight through the chat, which is very irritating but necessary at this point. Most of the time, however, very few Dungeon-leaders bother to explain anything or even to ask if anyone has never been in that dungeon before. The journal will help with this if players are given just a minute or two to read it before a fight.
Does this really solve the inherent problem with the raids, though?

Let's take the first 3 raids in Cata. BWD, BoT, and TOFW.

Why are we here? I miss the days of "raid quests" that'd lead you to a raid and make you want to complete it.

I'll take BRC as a great example of a dungeon setup. You find it from Hyjal and get a quest that brings you there and you follow the story of Raz as he plows through the place. While this sort of thing isn't optimal for a raid set up, something similar could be accomplished.

In Vanilla, you'd get quests for AQ in Silithus which made you want to raid it. If you were new to WoW, right...would you even know that BWD or BoT existed without trade chat? There are no quests to even guide you there, and while knowing why this boss must be killed is nice...if he's so bad and mean, why not a quest for it? Item rewards are, of course, not a necessity, but you'd think - at least - the King of SW would give a quest to kill that Nefarion fellow who is hovering over SW in that mountain over there. In the mean time, kill some of his abomination experiments while you are it.

I guess, in my view, raiding is summed up excellently by Adm. Stockdale: "Who am I and why am I here?"

i totally agree with the above. this game has come to a point where blizz =must also look at the gamers who like getting full content, and not just be casual. and even make the casual player wanna go ooo and aaaa and actually wanna bemore adamant about finding out why your smacking this boss or that boss around, or why these mobs are here or there. the game of warcraft should be for eveyone not just being catered to the casual player, or the hardcore ... but eveyone ... cause when you submit to any one single type you endup leaving out or making things way too easy and people fly through all the material and skip things just to get to the end. then they go back to cakewalk through all the old content. i have seen it alot and it will be the killer of WoW if blizz dev dont look at solving and making a easy medium of meeting all parties in the middle so they dont have to come up with new game content every 3-4 months, then soon we will be seeing new game content every month, then every week to every day things being added .... well will continue later

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