[PvE] Frost Mage Guide - 4.1

Mage
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But Arcane is all about mastery already.

I feel like Frost is the "balance" spec. We do decent AoE and Single Target, and we benefit rather evenly from stats. I kinda like it that way.


I agree, i like how frost is kind of in the middle. But the AoE is definitely not decent haha.Blizzard is easily one of the worst AoE's. I look at things like Rain of Fire and Mind Sear which it should be equal with, but isn't.


I guess the decent part about our AoE is the control we provide with it. Yes, damage is a little more than 50% behind Mind Sear and Rain of Fire (only 25% if the target is frozen! Oh boy!) but we have the luxury of being able to use both Ring of Frost and our Ele's Freeze to help slow adds. Not to say that's a reason our Blizzard damage should be critting for 3k less than other AoE abilities, but it's a consolation prize!
06/16/2011 06:43 PMPosted by Steehl
I guess the decent part about our AoE is the control we provide with it. Yes, damage is a little more than 50% behind Mind Sear and Rain of Fire (only 25% if the target is frozen! Oh boy!) but we have the luxury of being able to use both Ring of Frost and our Ele's Freeze to help slow adds. Not to say that's a reason our Blizzard damage should be critting for 3k less than other AoE abilities, but it's a consolation prize!


Hahah i also find it funny how the main bonus of it, the chill (for the slow and the procs), is only there with a talent. If they made the chill baseline (because the 1/2 slow is useless), and made it so that the slow applies immediately (not 1 second after casting), i wouldn't mind as much. But still, it's not enough compensation to make up for the gigantic difference in damage and the sheer amount of mana it costs (remember when it cost more mana than it did in damage? lol).

I would still like to see a 20-25% increase for it. *Can't wait to see the DD answers, hopefully they will answer our frost question.*
If the little blog post GC posted is any sign of how they feel about Frost PvE, I wouldn't hold your breath.



We nerfed Arcane Blast because Arcane’s damage was too high in PvE. We wanted Arcane to be competitive with Fire, especially given that Fire tends to perform better on fights with movement or multiple targets. However, it looked like many Fire mages were begrudgingly respeccing to Arcane, which wasn’t the intent. We wanted Arcane to be competitive, not the only serious mage spec for PvE. (See Frost vs. Unholy note above.)


At first when I read it, I thought they were comparing Frost MAGES to Unholy DKs. It took me a second to realize they were talking about Frost DKs vs Unholy DKs. So what does that make Frost PvE to them? Blood? I guess I'm making a big deal out of a poor analogy.

Well as long as they decide to keep Frost PvE-viable in 4.2, I'll be happy to see them "ignore" it.
I read that too, and at first that was the feeling i got too.

But then i remembered that they only posted those in reference to the changes on the PTR. There were no changes for Frost PvE, thus they didn't mention it. I wouldn't take it like they are ignoring it.

If they indeed do not discriminate questions based on if they like them or not, we should have that question answered. Lhiv made an ENTIRE post just to get votes for it....it's gotta be up there.
I read that too, and at first that was the feeling i got too.

But then i remembered that they only posted those in reference to the changes on the PTR. There were no changes for Frost PvE, thus they didn't mention it. I wouldn't take it like they are ignoring it.

If they indeed do not discriminate questions based on if they like them or not, we should have that question answered. Lhiv made an ENTIRE post just to get votes for it....it's gotta be up there.


There weren't really any serious changes to Fire either (quality of life stuff, but no buffs/nerfs), but that seems to be the one they are comparing it to as opposed to comparing arcane damage to both other specs.

That said, I believe the reason they're comparing Arcane to Fire is because pre-4.1 Fire was the top mage raiding spec, and after 4.1 it became Arcane. What they're trying to do is convince people that they can switch back to Fire if they were happy there. Frost wasn't brought up because it wasn't and still isn't the "top" dps spec. It is a little concerning that they're not mentioning it at all, though actions speak louder than words and it's in a pretty good spot right now (and, like fire, in a better spot with the 5% AB nerf).
why wouldn't you max enduring winter if you're going to put points into reactive barrier? i can see why you wouldn't max it if mana wasn't an issue, but then we're talking about switching to mage armor during a fight for mana.. seems like you'd want to be able to stay in molten armor for as long as you can before having to switch..

edit: ice shards and reactive barrier.. was miscounting. there's two unnecessary points between those two talents that could go into enduring winter. :X


It's been proven by multiple Sims and testing that those extra 1 or 2 points in Enduring Winter give you very little additional time with Molten Armor up. I can personally tell you from my experience that i didn't even recognize a change when i swapped those talents out.

Refer to the first page for why to get Ice Shards, but for reactive barrier it can be a free lifesaver in some cases. Once you go below 50%, it has a 50% chance every single hit to proc, which in situations where you are taking constant and ticking damage (think phase 2 Heroic Chim, or cho'gall), it's almost guaranteed it will proc. And trust me, having that is much better than the maybe 15 more seconds of having Molten Armor up.
bump
Updated for more flow.

Will also be adding to the rotation section come 4.2 due to the change from the t12 4piece.
In my experience, Frost AoE now is fairly strong for the middle ground players. My rotation tends to typically be Nova->CoC->Blizz->CoC->Blizz (rinse and repeat). Granted, I also have improved CoC as I'm a crappy PvP / PvE hybrid. The nice thing about Nova over Pet Freeze is you aren't wasting your FoF procs and the extra damage isn't terrible either. Plus, if you need to stop something that escapes, you've got an ace to bust out. Granted, for Magmaw the PF version is bettter since you need the range.
Ya know, when I first started this mage I actually wanted to go frost for both PvE and PvP. I've always loved frost, and I had heard frost was made much better for PvE in cata. The only time I can remember frost consistently being used in PvE was back in classic for MC and parts of BWL where you had to deal with immunities.

I actually haven't really done any PvE as frost. I don't know why. I only hit 85 a couple days ago but throughout my leveling I was pretty much arcane for dungeons and dabbled in fire a couple times.

I kinda wanna give frost a shot all of a sudden. Arcane's been bugging me a bit lately. I hate how movement restrictive it is and I hate getting all set up for my burn phase on a boss only to have some mechanic set me back or screw me over. The only thing I'm apprehensive about is having to deal with ignorant people. I know when played well frost can be competitive despite what people who are afraid of change think, but what I want to know is how much am I going to have to deal with people complaining orpossibly straight up vote kicking me out of groups, and how much harder it is to find a raiding guild advertising myself as a frost mage.
I finally went Frost for PvE. Arcane bores me and Fire frustrates me. I figure at least I always have to pay attention to stuff and it's not a simple spam spec, so it should be fun.

Specced it and just ran a Baradin Hold as a test. First thing I noticed - HOLY CRAP this spec runs through mana like it's water. Seriously, I know you guys had been complaining about how quickly Frost goes oom if you use Molten Armor, but geezus damn that was fast.

Blizzard will need to find a way to help this one out. I can't imagine with all the other crap Frost has to keep an eye on, that stance changing should be on the list too.
frost was def up there on single target with arcane, but due to too much attention taking and a new mouse, I had to go back to arcane :(, b/c i'm the raid leader

so yea, if you are the raid leader and raiders are dependent on you to call out stuffs during fights, then don't go frost hehe

I put up 2 no.1 ranks during the spans playing frost also, it's def like arcane pre 4.1 buffs, a lot thinkings and plannings during the fights, i loved it
06/21/2011 08:44 PMPosted by Kara
I know you guys had been complaining about how quickly Frost goes oom if you use Molten Armor, but geezus damn that was fast.


Lol. yeah, I rejuggled my talents quite a few times just for this reason. I could probably get a bit out of crit returns from fire now that I'm better geared over the flat 10%, but yeah mana management is key. Try to avoid Evocation as much as possible. I usually just wait till I see "low mana" then pop a gem and switch armors. Also, if you are going AoE, just run Mage Armor. It's not worth the headache.
I finally went Frost for PvE. Arcane bores me and Fire frustrates me. I figure at least I always have to pay attention to stuff and it's not a simple spam spec, so it should be fun.

Specced it and just ran a Baradin Hold as a test. First thing I noticed - HOLY CRAP this spec runs through mana like it's water. Seriously, I know you guys had been complaining about how quickly Frost goes oom if you use Molten Armor, but geezus damn that was fast.

Blizzard will need to find a way to help this one out. I can't imagine with all the other crap Frost has to keep an eye on, that stance changing should be on the list too.


Yeah, and you didn't even have to use blizzard. Yes, frost does run through mana very quickly, but i think i know the reason.

Due to the fact that frost has a soft crit cap (at only 33%), we will be getting to the point very easily come firelands without molten armor. I do believe that it is blizzard's intention for frost mages to eventually only run mage armor.
Lol. yeah, I rejuggled my talents quite a few times just for this reason. I could probably get a bit out of crit returns from fire now that I'm better geared over the flat 10%, but yeah mana management is key. Try to avoid Evocation as much as possible. I usually just wait till I see "low mana" then pop a gem and switch armors. Also, if you are going AoE, just run Mage Armor. It's not worth the headache.


Yeah, always remember that you should only have 1/3 enduring winter. But i agree. Unless you start AoE'in at 80-100% mana, just switch to mage armor preemptively
06/23/2011 03:52 PMPosted by Switch
Yeah, always remember that you should only have 1/3 enduring winter.


Yeah, I'm going to have to change that. Course, since I've got a bit of pvp thrown in, still trying to decide where to throw those points...
Improved Blink - marginal in PvE but nice for PvP.
Piercing Chill - Nice if you have close proximity adds, crap if you don't.
Permafrost - Nice in PvP and sorta useful on adds as well.

Also, was thinking about high movement fights while running Atra last night. Is it worthwhile to reverse the FFB over Lance order if both BF and FoF are up? Assuming you need to move for more than a single gcd, you'll get more dps I think (could be wrong). Also, if you know a long term movement is coming (Felfire or Atra tracking) would it be worth holding FFO for a few seconds? I'm thinking the wait loss (possibly 1 cast over the fight) might be less than the moving dps gain.
Yeah, I'm going to have to change that. Course, since I've got a bit of pvp thrown in, still trying to decide where to throw those points...
Improved Blink - marginal in PvE but nice for PvP.
Piercing Chill - Nice if you have close proximity adds, crap if you don't.
Permafrost - Nice in PvP and sorta useful on adds as well.

Also, was thinking about high movement fights while running Atra last night. Is it worthwhile to reverse the FFB over Lance order if both BF and FoF are up? Assuming you need to move for more than a single gcd, you'll get more dps I think (could be wrong). Also, if you know a long term movement is coming (Felfire or Atra tracking) would it be worth holding FFO for a few seconds? I'm thinking the wait loss (possibly 1 cast over the fight) might be less than the moving dps gain.


In terms of frost PvE you want to stay away from the arcane tree aside from the 2/3 points into Netherwind Presence.

Although many are skeptical about it, Piercing chill is simply a must. In situations where there are 2-3 adds you dramatically increase your chances of getting an FoF charge. It is also due to a lack of better talents to put the points into. Permafrost honestly is not that useful and the only real point that is arguable about it is between Reactive barrier and that. Definitely have piercing chill maxed.

And yes, frost's priority is complicated while moving. Because not many situations currently exist where you have long term movement, it is rarely discussed. But yes, while moving for long term, do NOT follow the "save one FoF charge" rule. The reason being because you only save that charge when you have a chance of getting another. When you are moving without FFO out and pet freeze is on cooldown, you have zero chance to get another charge, so use the charge on Ice Lance.

In regard to when to use FFO, it depends on the situation you're in. If you are farming normal modes, just wait till you stop so you can look pretty on the meters. But if you are in hard mode, where every single tiny dps counts and the clock is ticking, you want to get out as much damage as possible and use the FFO right off cooldown (assuming that it will hit the target for its entire duration.)
Crafting

Engineering - +96 Int (Synapse Springs -10 seconds of +480 int every minute)
Blacksmith - +80 int (two extra gem sockets)
Jewelcrafting - (27 extra int per red socket)
Leatherworking - (+130 int from Embossment - intellect)
Inscription - +80 int (Felfire Inscription)


Synapse Springs are up 1/6th of the time, (1/6)*480=80

I find it odd you listed the difference between the regular shoulder enchant and the inscription one (as that makes sense) but didn't list leatherworking the same way, as its enchant is 80int more than the normal enchant mages get.

Might as well just list jewelcrafting as 81 int, or add that the 27 extra 'per socket' is limited to a maximum of 3 sockets total.

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