dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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I dont really see why people are so upset by this. it's honestly no different than looking it up online, except you dont have to open a web browser in the background.

the only thing it really effects is raiding in the very begining when a new raid comes out, which is what most people are complaining about. but seriously, so what? now everyone can start raiding right away instead of waiting for the top end guilds to figure out the mechanics. and for the top end guild theyll still be the firsts to clear the content, just not be as large of margin is all.
You best be trollin'.

If doing raids in a guild means SO MUCH TO YOU, I can't imagine how your real life is.

And don't give me that face that you don't know what real life is.


Ah yes, the RL card: the last bastion of the hopelessly flummoxed.

To get back on topic, I don't support removing this tool entirely, but certain elements of it went way too far. Saying something like "Ragnaros will use this ability on groups of players" is fine. Saying he'll cast the spell "whenever he notices four players in a cluster together" is the kind of thing that's best left for the raid to figure out.

If somethings not broken why fix it ? What was broken blizz that they thought they needed to add this in ?


When was the last time you raided and no one decided to explain the fight to you? Because I do think most people end up just reading about it or watching a video. Personally I avoid it at all cost and i can simply not read the dungeon journal if i so choose.

The real question is why are they doing this ?

Do they think people need a guiding hand to get through the content quicker ? (7 bosses in Firelands and all)

Are they trying to open up raiding to more people like it was in Wotlk. ?

If somethings not broken why fix it ? What was broken blizz that they thought they needed to add this in ?


They added this because Blizzard decided that the game was not informative enough on Boss Encounters. I would rather save myself a few gold knowing what a boss' abilities are than go through the huge ass cycle of having 9 or 24 idiots ruin the raid for me.

FYI: The Idiots part is sarcasm.
05/19/2011 04:06 PMPosted by Dasadin
That said, what you're saying though translates to wanting to deny others (guilds that aren't top end raiding guilds) a chance to succeed from the start of the introduction of a new dungeon or raid. Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.


Again, this is simply not true at all. ALL guilds have the same chance to succeed from the start. Why must they rely on top guilds to provide strategies? What prevents them from figuring things out on their own?


This. ^
05/19/2011 04:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already.
This is already available in the combat log after you wipe once, it's just hard to find among too much information.

Those arguing against the dungeon journal seem to think it's the tankspot video, and there's a big difference. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" and "Y ability: does 200k damage shared evenly by all players within 5 yards" is not at all the same as how to cope with it: "Group 1 stack on the tank, group 2 spread out. Stack for blackout and meteor strikes, then spread back out again."

Knowing what the boss is doing is not the same as knowing how to counter that, it's just the ground work base knowledge you need to come up with a strategy. You still have to come up with that strategy and execute it.

I'd also expect that the next tier of raids after introducing the dungeon journal will add far more complex boss mechanics, requiring invention of more complex and interesting strategies, because that will be possible in the face of not having to wipe 10 times just to understand what the boss mechanics are. When you can be told what the boss mechanics are and how they work, it opens the door for more complex boss mechanics that call for more complex strategies, and if you're into invention and experimentation, this makes for a better playground, not a worse one.
I think anyone who is complaining about the Dungeon Journal is not really in a top end guild. A top end guild does not start collecting information when the content goes live. They have at least a month of practice on the PTR before the "real show" the day the patch releases. A top end guild would not be "forced" to read the journal to keep up with their peers. They would only be sacrificing a few wipes their first time trying the content on the PTR by ignoring the new feature. Even if they were "forced" to read the journal in order to keep up, Blizzard would probably be willing to inconvenience a few hundred players to aid the other several million.
You best be trollin'.

If doing raids in a guild means SO MUCH TO YOU, I can't imagine how your real life is.

And don't give me that face that you don't know what real life is.


Ah yes, the RL card: the last bastion of the hopelessly flummoxed.

To get back on topic, I don't support removing this tool entirely, but certain elements of it went way too far. Saying something like "Ragnaros will use this ability on groups of players" is fine. Saying he'll cast the spell "whenever he notices four players in a cluster together" is the kind of thing that's best left for the raid to figure out.


Ok, this is constructive, and I see where you are going with this idea.

If this is really how it might be, then I guess I will side with you.

I guess another example is if Ragnaros has a fireball ability (extremely and horribly generic, I know) and the Journal says he will release it in a frontal cone. Perhaps it's worded better if said he will do a fireball effect in front of him, but then the raid figures out he does it only in a frontal cone.
I love this new feature. I've been asked on more then one occasion to help out our guild to down a boss I haven't seen. I don't have time to go look up a video and it would be awesome to take a quick look at the journal while the raid leader is giving out instructions, etc. I don't like going in blind to any encounter, its still challenging even if I've seen/done it a few times so I don't feel that this new feature takes away from the discovery... watching it on a video or reading about it is not the same as going in and doing it, regardless of what you think you can expect its always going to be different because the other 9 or 24 people with you can make different choices and decisions then the last time you killed the boss.
05/19/2011 04:10 PMPosted by Stonarius
It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already.
This is already available in the combat log after you wipe once, it's just hard to find among too much information.

Those arguing against the dungeon journal seem to think it's the tankspot video, and there's a big difference. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" and "Y ability: does 200k damage shared evenly by all players within 5 yards" is not at all the same as how to cope with it: "Group 1 stack on the tank, group 2 spread out. Stack for blackout and meteor strikes, then spread back out again."

Knowing what the boss is doing is not the same as knowing how to counter that, it's just the ground work base knowledge you need to come up with a strategy. You still have to come up with that strategy and execute it.

I'd also expect that the next tier of raids after introducing the dungeon journal will add far more complex boss mechanics, requiring invention of more complex and interesting strategies, because that will be possible in the face of not having to wipe 10 times just to understand what the boss mechanics are. When you can be told what the boss mechanics are and how they work, it opens the door for more complex boss mechanics that call for more complex strategies, and if you're into invention and experimentation, this makes for a better playground, not a worse one.



Actually, being told there will be fire here, or this is gonna be divided damage among players, *is* the same, because it's a no-brainer, like I already stated. I'm sure if X Firelands boss shows us a completely new mechanic by walking overhead on a wire like a t*%#@ze artist, doing flips in the air, causing more earthquakes to wreck Auberdine still further, and causing goblins to barf in Gadgetzan, which causes a damaging ability, single- or multi-target, to happen at this spot in X boss's room, it will still be a no-brainer that we have to burst-heal the single-target guy, or get out of the fire or spikes or whatever, or converge to disperse damage. It doesn't matter what kind of new ability they write up. It's still gonna be a no-brainer what to do when the ability itself is so clearly spelled out for us.
I'd prefer that the DJ only showed Lore behind the bosses and raid/dungeons and the loot they drop. Maybe a few lines on the boss but not each phase and spell detail.

Eg

Atramedes - The blind dragon is known to be stunned by loud noise.

Its a handy hint, thats all the DJ should be
05/19/2011 04:11 PMPosted by Hydricky
I think anyone who is complaining about the Dungeon Journal is not really in a top end guild.


You must have missed the NA threads such as this one filled with many posters from the US top 20, or numerous EU posts from Paragon, Ensidia, FTH, Method, Inner Sanctum, Affenjungs, etc.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2098122483


This. ^


Absolutely nothing prevents them from figuring it out on there own. But if the information is giving to you through the internet which blizzard can do nothing about then i don't see why people shouldn't use it. Blizzard is only making it so people who don't wanna go look at a video can do it through the game. If there was NO videos NO information on anything and blizzard added this out of the blue then i would say YES you have argument that this is a dumb idea but this is NOT the case.


The damage being done here, if you still haven't seen it, is that those who want to figure it out for themselves cannot credibly do so with this tool out. This is a large part of the fun for these people. It's a large part of the fun for those who spectate. It's even a large part of the fun for those who aren't at all progressed, but want to ignore the guides and figure things out on their own.

And I'm obviously and clearly against taking away fun from people to add a mere convenience to others. I'm surprised you still haven't seen this either.
Its not like people arent datamining information on the fights anyways, and its that information thats being put in the DJ. Do you really think that top guilds dont datamine or look at the combat log at that when they are in the PTR. In that case get rid of the dungeon journal and get rid of the ptr.

Bottom line, you dont have to look at the journal and its not like your going to down the boss first try anyways. Quit your whining.

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