Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking (Answers)

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Nice to see they have Top People on making sure they translate things correctly. Now I'm curious if any other past questions might have been translated incorrectly.

Or they just decided to reword it so that it reached a broader audience?

If they reworded it, they turned it into a stupid question that didn't need to be in a Q&A.

As for

We have the druids screaming they are the worst

Most of the druid posters on the tanking forum (particularly the further progressed ones) don't really think that - it's the quality of life issues that matter (ranged pulls, charge costing instead of granting rage, etc.) as well as some mechanical ones, especially w/mastery.

If DKs are "broken" how can druids be the worst tanks? To me they seem mutually exclusive.

My understanding of the DK "broken argument" is that they rely on resources and player skill to increase survivability, its all tied in to deathstrike and cooldown usage. This can make the very powerful or very weak depending on the skill of the player and RNG.

The devs are saying they like that model and want to have other tanks operate that way. The numbers are "close enough" now so that each tank can tank content and they do not need to make drastic changes.

Next revamp of the classes I would expect to see survivability be placed more on the players rotation for all tanks beyond just keeping up ap debuffs and attack speed slows and popping a cooldonw on the oh crap moments.
It was ok I guess. Didn't really answer any questions I had or give much if any information I didn't already know.

Then again I liked the insight into what it is they want from a new class before they begin to really make it a new class. It's really a fair point as well. Since Cataclysm every spec of every class plays very distinctly, which is a new thing compared to previous expansions where many specs and classes were very similar in PvE playstyle.
06/08/2011 06:24 PMPosted by Therealgor
If DKs are "broken" how can druids be the worst tanks? To me they seem mutually exclusive.

It would be more accurate to say they have MASSIVE QoL issues.

Most of the druid posters on the tanking forum (particularly the further progressed ones) don't really think that - it's the quality of life issues that matter (ranged pulls, charge costing instead of granting rage, etc.) as well as some mechanical ones, especially w/mastery.

I haven't seen a question expressed about the druid mastery relying on crits (which I assume you mean) but understand on side you have druids complaining on having an RNG passive mastery on the other DKs complaining about having an active mastery.

The devs have said they are not happy with passive mastery (block) of paladins and warriors but they cant fix it without a major overhaul.

As to the quality of life issues I don't play a druid so i cant comment... I find them boring too :p
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
A: We don’t currently balance around the assumption that tanks cap hit or expertise. We’re definitely looking at ways to make reliably hitting more attractive to tanks in the future, though. Currently, missing is just a compound to the issue discussed in Question #1. Getting tanks to care about threat stats, not for the threat benefit (but for a mitigation benefit), is one potential direction. For example, DKs want to make sure their Death Strikes hit because of the mitigation benefit. Druids care about crit because of Savage Defense. We speculated at one point that we could make Shield Block (and now Holy Shield) require a successful hit to do their jobs. We’re not sure we will go that direction, but it’s one idea. We would of course compensate tanks for any potential loss of predictable mitigation.

Being able to reliably connect with my target is already attractive: it keeps the melee DPS from pulling aggro and dying.

Right now, one in four of my attacks do not connect.

To be clear, I care about threat stats. But I have to reforge for mastery, dodge, and parry in order to survive the encounters. It is a painful but necessary tradeoff right now. Also, it is not a fun tradeoff. If these are the kinds of "difficult decisions" that the developers think make for interesting gameplay, they are mistaken. Seeing streaks of misses, parries, and dodges when trying to keep threat ahead of strong DPS is frustrating, especially in the first ten seconds of a raid encounter before Vengeance has had time to build up.

I'm not advocating increased Vengeance or higher threat modifiers. My frustration lies in having such a high chance in failing to land an attack.

As to the quality of life issues I don't play a druid so i cant comment... I find them boring too :p

It's pretty easy for you to simulate. Take charge off your bar and use intercept instead, and spec out of gag order. Then you'll be able to experience the QoL issue questions that were voted for, but not answered.
I think the complaints in the thread are blown out of proportion a bit here. The Q&A didn't answer many questions we didn't already know the answer to, but it performed exactly as they said it would. Popular questions get the answer.

As for bear and blood tanking, they both perform. They are not identical to other tanks, but they are still fully functional. Death Knights are more prone to damage spikes in specific situations when all of their cooldowns and runes are consumed, but the said situations do not occur nearly as often (at least for me) as people are trying to make it seem here.
Further, for it to occur requires RNG multiplied by RNG several times over, while also excluding beneficial RNG and the skill of the Death Knight, the Healer(s), and possible support players.
While these perfect storm damage spike situations can occur for Death Knights, it's not like the other tanking classes don't have particular situations which make them more vulnerable to sudden death.

Or they just decided to reword it so that it reached a broader audience?

And completely gutted the question in the process? What was posted was NOT the question they voted for. They asked why does a specific taunt still miss despite patch notes saying that it shouldn't. Blizzard answered: "They don't miss, we changed that a while ago!"

I thought that Blizz was simply taking stupid questions verbatim, when it turns out that they were taking niche questions, and turning them into stupid questions, which they then provide stupid answers to. You can't even lay the blame for this fiasco on the shoulders of idiot players. It's entirely on Blizzard's lack of professionalism.

Are you 100% sure righteous defense does "miss"... Come to the defense of a friendly target, commanding up to 3 enemies attacking the target to attack the Paladin instead.

Maybe it is a bug? Maybe it is a badly designed talent? Its not a generic AE taunt being that it only works on friendly targets and only UP TO 3 monsters attacking that specific friendly target.

A better question perhaps could be Paladins currently have no reliable way to taunt a group of mobs, warriors/druids have ae shout, DKs have army of the undead, paladins only have RD which can only be used on friendly targets and will only affect monsters currently aggro'd on that target to a max of 3 targets. Are there any plans to address this?
06/08/2011 06:41 PMPosted by Thrandriel
Every warrior tank needs to have Blood and Thunder, you just rend and Thunderclap and just keep thunderclaping and spreading the Rend to new mobs and refreshing it on the old ones. Iv had a lot of warrior tanks in my group before and about 50% of them don't know what they're supposed to do. Some of those tanks don't even know what thunderclap is.

I think the intial aggro issue is more specifically addressed to the single target raid tanking... off the top of my head the most recent time I have struggled is when tanking a drake on halfus lust gets blown off the bat.. when the drake needs to be repositioned it becomes problematic, especially if SS misses. This is also a problem when trying to reposition Onyxia with over zealous DPS.

Other tanks have offensive cooldowns to use to help in this situation... but the devs have said intial aggro should be a concern so thats the end of that.
Ranged silence would be nice for QoL of druids, but it's not a particularly major issue in my experience.
I always use LoS pulls, even on my plate tanks, because it makes establishing initial aggro on a pack so much easier.

The warriors saying Initial threat is too weak

... whats so hard about rend and then thunderclap? If you have blood and thunder in your talent tree it works like a charm. If you are still having trouble with the aggro tell your group to wait till you have aggro first, which may be the case with 50% of the complaints on this thread

Unfortunately a LOT of people don't WAIT for the thunderclap before starting the dps. They'll start going hard as soon as the charge happens. However, it takes us around TWO gcds to get our starting aoe aggro generation off (because we have to charge in or we have no rage in order to rend/thunder clap, and if we have to heroic throw pull.. we're screwed, unless our shouts aren't on cooldown). Yes, it works well when people wait.. unfortunately, a LOT of dps don't seem to realize that. And while yes, reminding them "Warriors do not have aggro immediately after engaging. Please wait for Thunder clap" SOMETIMES works, it can get quite annoying to have to remind people every time. It makes it annoying when you wanna chain queue... If I have to make a macro to remind people how to group with me because of build in mechanics... Sure, it's possible, but it IS just another hurdle that has to be overcome along with all the other tank hurdles. It's almost just like that last straw that just makes it too much to bother with sometimes.
Haven't bothered posting on the forums in a long time, but I just had to say;

Thanks for the effort Devs, next time just don't bother.

From the questions that were useless, (taunts missing, dps hp, leg enchants) to the questions you failed to actually answer (threat issues at the start of a fight for some classes) to the valid questions that didn't get into the list this was a complete waste of your players time to write, your CM's time to compile and your devs time to answer.

I don't read the forums much, I don't spend all my day on tanking sites, this should have been an interesting and informative read for a non-hardcore tank such as myself. Instead the only thing I can take away from this Q&A is a feeling of "what is this I don't even..."

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