Where are the RAID PUG's?

General Discussion
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i make my own pugs now tbh to try and gear my tank, my guild has a group 2 for alts and noobies, it hasn't gone for 4 weeks, i actually had to lead it myself with mostly pug,
3/10 guildies in a pug run pre t11 nerfs were not fun
06/30/2011 05:08 PMPosted by Zhery
The key issue here is that the accessibility model has been changed, drastically. I don't like the changes. I liked the Wrath model, and I don't like the Cataclysm model. You considering it an anomaly doesn't influence how I plan future expenditures of my entertainment dollars. Blizzard has lost customers, specifically in relation to Cataclysm. Blizzard has also indicated they have metrics which clearly indicate that a lot of people think that the Cataclysm content is inaccessible.


The Wrath model cost them customers too. You can see it when you look at how the number of new players stagnated compared to the growth seen in TBC. If Cataclysm had been Wrath 2.0 they would have lost me.

Its not me 'considering' it an anomaly. Vanilla/TBC/Cata were one way regarding current raid difficulity, Wrath was another. Don't need to be a statistician to see which was the odd man out.


No, you can't say the Wrath model lost them customers. That's just incorrect. Growth certainly DID stagnate, but you can't claim you know why, you have no data on that. Nor can you claim that the customer base would have continued to grow if not for the Wrath model, because again, you don't actually know how big the market is for this sort of product.

On the other hand, Morhaime has specifically told us that they've lost 600k subscribers since Cataclysm's release. Additionally, Bashiok has specifically told us they're tracking a substantial number of subscribers who are not accessing existing content: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2580388532#13

Further, I completely disagree with your assessment of the relative difficulty of the different expansions. I think that from vanilla to BC to Wrath showed a distinct and consistent trend towards increased accessibility.


And finally, you're missing my point. This is me, telling a service provider, whom I pay, how well I feel I'm being served.

If you're happy with Cataclysm then by all means, let them know. I'm not trying to stop you. You're insistence that I'm wrong is disconcerting. I'm not trying to claim the sky is red, rather I'm claiming that I'm displeased with the direction Cataclysm has taken the game. I'm saying that I personally am unhappy.

You can be as happy as you like with Cataclysm, but you're NOT an example of the demographic Bashiok is talking about in the post I linked.

And I am.


So casuals will constantly be a tier behind for the rest of the life of this game? If that is what is actually coming out of your mouth I'll save myself the time and unsub now. What a piss poor vision for your game. There are normal and heroic versions of raids for a reason. That heroic difficulty was implemented so that the two segments of the population (casual and hardcore) would both have something to do. You are now bifurcating the raiding population AGAIN, by telling casuals that they have to run around in the left overs.


Trying to label all of our players as “casual puggers” vs.” hardcore raiders” is ridiculously simplistic. Among raiders there is an enormous diversity of players. There are those who will raid virtually every night when new content is out, to guilds that raid once a week (and even then will cancel raid nights fairly commonly). If you must try to label raiders, you’d be closer to the Blizzard model if you said normal mode is for organized raids, heroic mode is for more hardcore organized raids, and the previous tier of content (and Baradin Hold) is targeted for pick-up groups. Also consider that even within a raid zone we try to design easier bosses (usually near the front) and more challenging ones (usually at the end) which can help blur those lines and offer smoother transitions for each category.

Overall, we think you’ll have a better experience playing World of Warcraft if you play with friends, either existing or those you meet in game. WoW, while much more solo friendly than most older MMO games, is still intended as a multiplayer game. We provide features like Dungeon Finder for when playing with friends isn’t possible, and as we said above, we’d like to offer more features like that.


i can't believe you even gave Overture the time of day....
Overall, we think you’ll have a better experience playing World of Warcraft if you play with friends, either existing or those you meet in game. WoW, while much more solo friendly than most older MMO games, is still intended as a multiplayer game. We provide features like Dungeon Finder for when playing with friends isn’t possible, and as we said above, we’d like to offer more features like that.
Reach out to the unwashed masses to make more friends, or wait on lockouts and compete for those you deem worthy. The community is what you make of it.
I'm not going to bother reading the majority of what has already been said, I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Prior to Cata, throughout the entirety of Wrath after the first month of the expansion launched, our server was pug central. Pugs forming in Trade, pugs forming in player initiated chat channels, server forums, even third-party web sites that helped put pugs together. Other than one or two nights a week, from 6pm to 2-3am, there would be a pug run of some kind. And for the last 6-8 months of Wrath, there were multiple GDKP runs going on both factions that had great results for everyone involved.

Swing back to the present and the same cannot be side, period. Our raid browser shows zip any night of the week during our primetime, all of the old LFG channels we used to use are barren, and you might get lucky to hear about a pug that tried to form up in Trade or General from your cousin's third uncle. As for GDKP, it seems to be a new four letter word people are afraid to utter.

IMO, one of the issues that led to this problem is the change that by doing one version of a raid locks you out from the other. Many guilds are running two or three nights a week, and for a few per guild, they would like to raid more but are unable to.

This subtle gating system that gets added more and more is becoming to be a major drag on a lot of people's fun.
Area 52 there are constant pug for t11 and firelands, not just trash farming.
I can live with being 1 tier behind everyone else. the current model is great. i'm still able to gear up and move around azeroth with little to no effort. dalies are just the right difficulty. My only problem is still not being able to fully customize my character the way i would like too. there are many sets out there i would like to wear again but can't because the stats would limit my playing to main cities only. i can't stress enough how much i desire an appearance tab. i know you guys are working on one. Any updates on that?
Raid lockouts are also the main reason for us. We raid Monday and Tuesday. So, as soon as Tuesday hits we are already saved to content. What would we do? The odds of joining a pug that just happens to need someone when they've already downed a boss or two usually means Death Group. So, we don't pug. If 25s were still available, we would.

I suspect much of the other reason is the large amount of ground spawn and interrupts. I've been tanking on 3 toons lately and out of curiosity I've been watching. I'm lucky to get someone in 1 out of 20 pugs that interrupts things. And T11 has quite a few do or die interrupts. Even nerfed, I'd be concerned about pugging them as is. The one person I know that tried it, was very frustrated with people not interrupting and refusing to get out of bad stuff.

The weekly raid quest is missed as well.
Question: would Blizzard consider adding a "puggable" raid tier at the start of the next expansion, so that we don't have to wait six months to get a puggable raid?

It doesn't even have to be intricate or visually stimulating. Just something for the pugging community to do.
Changing the way the raid lockouts work was a big part of PUGs dying off, I think.



You were getting carried. How many times do I have to say it.


How true and how sad that new players cannot be carried again.

Everyone has to learn somewhere. Pugs and "other size guild runs" were the best way for it. It provided platform for experienced and new players to meet where the cost of failure was very low. People doing progression in 25 (or 10) were not afraid to get locked in 10 (or 25). It also gave guild/players opportunities to see and test each other. New players would be carried to 4,7 or 9 bosses and experienced players would get extra loot and tokens. All this is lost in Cata.

As it stands now, there is almost no opportunity for experienced and new players to mix. One lockout killed that.

While I do expect to see a lot of BWD/BOT pugs in the next week or two, it will die very fast.

After that we will be back to square one, 10 noobs trying to kill omnitrin and failing badly, getting discouraged and un-subscribing. What was gained with easier fights will be lost by semi-experienced or more-casual non-guilded players moving to firelands.

And yes; some players did manage to get into raiding but in my opinion they are exception to the rule.

What we really need is some format where experienced and new players can meet that will provide benefits to both. It is really shame that BOT/BWD do not drop some valor. That would give some benefit to experienced players to do those pugs to top their weekly quota.

My suggestion:
- allow separate lockouts
- award 35 valor per normal boss in t1 raids

And no, guilds are not the answer. The guild has no incentive to train a new player that is on a much lower level (skill and gear) then the rest of the group. Nor they can due to shared lockouts.
The idea of having separate lockouts for organized groups vs. pick-up groups is an intriguing one. Raid lockouts is something we debate internally a lot. The challenge is that it’s difficult to provide flexibility to players who want it without the extra content becoming mandatory for many raiders.

Specifically, some players really enjoyed being able to raid ICC with 10 friends and then pug the 25-player version of ICC. But unless we structure the loot model carefully, many people feel like they must do both every week in order to maximize epics, reputation, valor, legendary components and other types of loot per week. It will take some guilds all of their raid nights just to make progress in Firelands. Asking them to also go back and do Blackwing Descent and Bastion of Twilight can turn a casual raid schedule into a second job.

In any case, we have sleeves, and things are up them.


Then do loot lock outs. No loot for you but you can still get valor up to the cap and guild rep or something. You already have a cap on valor.

Also, I know most of the community will hate me for saying this but I think we need a queue for raid bosses. Maybe not cross server, but something automatic that will help organize pugs, gear check, etc... It would be great to be able to jump into a queue for one boss down the trash do the boss and then be able to leave.

The issue for me and I suspect many like me is time. I don't want to spend a lot of time looking for a group. I don't necessarily even want to spend a whole evening playing wow. I don't want to schedule blocks of time to raid. I want to jump on the game whenever I feel like it and into playing and have a good time.

I know it really is a lot to ask and I know it would be hard to balance with the guilds and players who feel like they are working and earning their rewards but I want to have fun, without the chores.
The shared lockouts helped kill PUGs raids. In Wrath, if someone took their main to an organized 10man run every week, they often participated in (and sometimes even organized) a 25man run with the same character. That 25man in this case, however, wasn't all mains... alts worked their way in, and multiple guilds or even non-guilded folks were invited.

Now, those intrepid folks have their mains locked out every week. Unless they really want to run an alt, they can't PUG.

06/30/2011 07:41 PMPosted by Tasida
Further, I completely disagree with your assessment of the relative difficulty of the different expansions. I think that from vanilla to BC to Wrath showed a distinct and consistent trend towards increased accessibility.


My argument is that Wrath took that trend too far and now Blizzard has done a course correction.

I'm not trying to say that you are wrong in your opinions, that's obviously impossible. Its your money and your time, so you are certainly entitled to voice those opinions.

To imply that Cataclysm has gone in a totally foreign direction, difficulty wise, is erroneous. Cataclysm has taken some elements of raid difficulty back to where they were in the past. You can feel that such a change was wrong, but it was hardly drastic. The game is still more accessible than it was in vanilla or BC. Back then, you couldn't even zone into raids without jumping through 14 hoops to get attuned.

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