Where are the RAID PUG's?

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We specifically intend for the 4.0 raids to be puggable now that Firelands is out. Grabbing some tier 11 by way of Justice, quest rewards, plus across the board difficulty nerfs should really be enough to get them going.

The patch has only been out a day or so though. I think it'll probably take a little bit before people really get it into their heads that they should be pugging the previous tier because it's not too hard to be successful. It's just getting people used to the various encounters and mechanics.

Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option. I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.


How about leaving some incentive to pug the previous tier of raids? As it is, most of the gear available from normal T11 raids is supplanted by equivalent (or very nearly) gear easily obtained through heroic dungeon farming for JP, or gear easily obtained through ZA/ZG farming.

Blizzard has left no incentive for anybody to go through the effort of organizing and participating in a 10/25 person T11 raid, and the time and effort entailed. The content may have been nerfed, but it's still way easier to organize (dungeon finder) and participate in (minimal co-ordination) heroic dungeons or ZA/ZG.
The way I read it is that Blizzard is trying hard to balance design philosophy between the needs of the different types of players.

Whether or not content is current is relative to your place in content. If you haven't cleared tier 11, then tier 11 is current content for you. By nerfing that content, Blizzard has made the transition from dungeons to tier 11 more accessible, and by virtue of that progression to Firelands will be a smoother, and frankly easier, thing to accomplish.

With tier 11 content as easy as it is now, you can see the content, clear the content, and get the needed experience and iLVL for Firelands fairly easily. If after that you don't have the time and/or inclination to put in the effort to work on Firelands, you have the option of waiting until it is nerfed as well.

What exactly is it you want from the developers? That new raids be immediately puggable as well?


Let me try it another way. Basically I'm not thrilled with the "hand me down" raid philosophy being parroted at us right now. Think about it" here you go johnny, heres a raid just for you. Billy and Tommy don't want to play it anymore so its all yours, and please stop asking to play with Tommys toys, you know how upset that makes him"


Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. And about the difficulty arguement. Isn't there a heroic setting for a reason?
I think generally the LFG system has made people even more wary of pugging. Let alone on something that requires real coordination and team work.
06/30/2011 01:50 PMPosted by Fayul


Yes that is their current philosophy. Raid or die.


I know that many seem to love this kind of format, but honestly I can't see myself sticking around much longer. The whole idea of old outdated content counting as actual "content" for those with a life or a less then optimal schedule just really doesn't sit well with me.


I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same way.
Seriously, another 6-7 months of dailies and running outdated raids for outdated gear?


C'mon guys, you are better then this. You have set the standard for years now. Don't blow it on the homestretch


The only reason it is "outdated" is because you decided it was. If you havnt done it then it is new content for you. Every patch you will be able to do content that is new for you so in reality you are getting same experience as people in raid guilds who do new stuff every patch as well albeit easier stuff but if it wasnt easier you would not be able to pug it. So with this format you get the bonus of doing fights you havnt done before and therefore new for you and raiders get bonus of not just walking thru stuff half asleep.
The only reason it is "outdated" is because you decided it was. If you havnt done it then it is new content for you. Every patch you will be able to do content that is new for you so in reality you are getting same experience as people in raid guilds who do new stuff every patch as well albeit easier stuff but if it wasnt easier you would not be able to pug it. So with this format you get the bonus of doing fights you havnt done before and therefore new for you and raiders get bonus of not just walking thru stuff half asleep.


Really? Have you ever tried to form a raid for old content? It's not the cakewalk many on here would have you believe. So instead of spending my time running a few heroics with my snazzy healer queue, I could spend half the night forming a raid that more then likely won't even down the first boss, let alone actually clear it.

No VP from T-11, Similar gear from Za/Zg, And a lockout guaranteeing that any of the experienced raiders won't be joining seem like a pretty hefty roadblock to any pug raid for T-11
I've seen a couple Pugs for BWD...Pst with Ilvl and achieve. Just like the GS nonsense in wrath... I'd love to run em but hopefully once the FL hoopla clams down we'll see some more PuG runs for T11.
Really? Have you ever tried to form a raid for old content? It's not the cakewalk many on here would have you believe. So instead of spending my time running a few heroics with my snazzy healer queue, I could spend half the night forming a raid that more then likely won't even down the first boss, let alone actually clear it.

Varies from server to server. Servers like KJ PuGs all over the place. Although now it is getting held down with people expecting hurp durp free caries and players bail when ever they want without saying anything. It is a people problem with players attitudes holding other players back, not a content problem.
06/30/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Bashiok
Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option.


If people were willing to do that there'd have been fewer pleas to nerf the content.
06/30/2011 06:36 AMPosted by Milkem
We haven't gotten to the point where a tank and 2 healers can carry a group of idiot dps through the mechanics of a fight yet.


This is probably one of the biggest reasons why we don't see many pug raids anymore.
Varies from server to server. Servers like KJ PuGs all over the place. Although now it is getting held down with people expecting hurp durp free caries and players bail when ever they want without saying anything. It is a people problem, not a content problem.


I'm a fresh xfer to KJ because I have been hearing all along that it was one of the best servers to pug anything. And to quote the guy above me.


06/30/2011 02:09 PMPosted by Mathesar
I've seen a couple Pugs for BWD...Pst with Ilvl and achieve. Just like the GS nonsense in wrath... I'd love to run em but hopefully once the FL hoopla clams down we'll see some more PuG runs for T11.



Already seeing this nonsense.




2. To the people who immediately ripped this response, dudes chill. Yes it appears the intent is that the PUG's tackle last tier raiding, but the response from Bashiok is an honest one and truly it is to be expected that you won't be seeing HM PUG's any time soon. I appreciated the candor and insight on how the Dev team wants this to work.

Sorry if thats how it came out. My intention wasn't to tear into a blue.
06/30/2011 02:06 PMPosted by Strydr
Though I remember PUG's tackling regular ICC pre-nerf, there were a WHOLE lot more going on post ICC nerf. Hopefully the same happens here.


Very few servers, bordering on none of them, were pugging ICC before the buff jumped past the 15% mark.
Boulderfist's Trade, for all its terrible progression, is 80% people looking for pugs now. During prime time, there are easily five or more pugs recruiting at once for BWD and BoT. I've even seen a few Firelands ones, real pugs, not rep farming groups.
And yes, most of them want a decent ilevel and achievement. Nothing wrong with wanting a smooth run.
I will rephrase, for many people on my server difficulty was never the problem to pug anything.

Its the other variables having significant effect. Quite frankly, t11 didn't need a nerf, difficulty was never the problem. In fact, t11 needed to be hard because that will train people to raid firelands. And thats proven by not many people excited over doing t11 since the patch came out.

On one of my alts, I am trying to get a pug together and not one has responded. Everyone wants to do FL trash runs.
The way I read it is that Blizzard is trying hard to balance design philosophy between the needs of the different types of players.

Whether or not content is current is relative to your place in content. If you haven't cleared tier 11, then tier 11 is current content for you. By nerfing that content, Blizzard has made the transition from dungeons to tier 11 more accessible, and by virtue of that progression to Firelands will be a smoother, and frankly easier, thing to accomplish.

With tier 11 content as easy as it is now, you can see the content, clear the content, and get the needed experience and iLVL for Firelands fairly easily. If after that you don't have the time and/or inclination to put in the effort to work on Firelands, you have the option of waiting until it is nerfed as well.

What exactly is it you want from the developers? That new raids be immediately puggable as well?


Let me try it another way. Basically I'm not thrilled with the "hand me down" raid philosophy being parroted at us right now. Think about it" here you go johnny, heres a raid just for you. Billy and Tommy don't want to play it anymore so its all yours, and please stop asking to play with Tommys toys, you know how upset that makes him"


Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. And about the difficulty arguement. Isn't there a heroic setting for a reason?


So, if I am understanding you correctly, the nerfs to the tier 11 raids make them feel like hand-me-downs? I don't understand. If you wanted to do them pre-nerf, why didn't you? If you were constrained by time available to play that is totally understandable. That's also one of the reason Blizz made them puggable - so that you don't need hours of scheduled raid time every week to clear the content.

I understand wanting to be in the newest, flashiest content with everyone else, and I have no problem with anyone being there alongside me as long as they put in the effort to research their class, the fights, and bring the required consumables. But I do want content that is interesting for me as a player. If Firelands was released at a level of difficulty similar to that of post-nerf tier 11, I'd be sorely disappointed.

Blizzard isn't denying anyone access to the new raid, and in fact they have basically said here, allow us to speed up your progression into Firelands so you can get there ASAP. But I will reiterate, if you don't have the time and/or inclination to put in the effort to complete Firelands in its current implementation, wait for it to be nerfed. If you haven't done it at that point, it will still be current content for you.

I suspect the issue isn't "current" content, its "current" gear. Why are dedicated raiders who have more time to play than me getting better gear than I am? Throwing me a bone by making Tier 11 gear easy to get - I don't want tier 11 gear, I want tier 12 gear. If that is the real issue at hand, say so. Don't camouflage your gripe with Blizzard by talking about content.

If I'm wrong, I apologize. I really don't intend for this post to be inflammatory.
06/30/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Bashiok
Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option. I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.


Still unsure what that means regarding the final raid (i.e. Deathwing). Do pugs not get to see him until the next expansion is released? (Not saying whether that's a good thing or not, but personally I enjoyed getting to Arthas on some of my alts without spending near as much time as I did on my main.)

I also am still not sure that the new format is necessarily better than the previous format, which was "Heroics are hard, Normal is easy". What were the hard-modes put in for, if not to give more serious raiders the challenge they wanted while giving the masses the opportunity to see the content?

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