Where are the RAID PUG's?

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Again, I really don't want anyone left in the dark here. And nowhere did I say or imply that a whole tier needed to be stupid easy. But how would you feel next tier(and i'm going to assume you are moderatly talented and progressed player here) that they had implemented a new philosophy for raids and normals will now be at the old heroic curve and heroics will be mind boggling hard? Because thats what they did to me with cata

Yes, the shut up thing was a typo. I went back and fixed it. Thank you for not fixating on that and overreacting, and actually taking the time to consider the context of the sentence.

I imagine we have hit the impasse where we both simply have different ideas about how much challenge raiding needs to contain to be worth our respective time. I doubt content can be tuned to find a way to satisfy both of us at the same time when it is first released, but if Blizzard does find a way, good for you.
Blizzard is trying to please both casuals and hard core raiders. Early in a new expansion it will be all about the hard core raider types, which of course angers casuals. As the expansion ages it will become increasingly casual friendly. As the end nears, much to the chagrin of the hard cores, almost anyone with a level capped character will be able to take a shot at Arthas, Deathwing, etc etc
I work a rotating shift at a chemical plant. Day shifts are 6:30am to 6:30pm and night shifts are pm to am. On the days I work I'm lucky to have an hour to play if that. On my days off I may be playing in the afternoon or wee hours of the morning depending on which rotation is upcoming. I also work between 800 and 1000 hours of overtime a year which makes maintaining a raid schedule impossible. As a result I generally don't play for the first 6 months of a new expansion then come in later and level toons and professions while biding my time, waiting for my little window of opportunity to open.
I know I'll never see most of the end game, get to be a gladiator or be an achievement king but I'm not going to quit a 100,000 dollar a year job to work 30 hours a week at Gamestop to play a video game.
06/30/2011 02:45 PMPosted by Milsa
Form a raid group and let everyone know that you haven't done the fight before and see how many raiders you keep.

Why tell them? Watch the videos and you'll know well enough.

Maybe there are other people on your server like you who have a hard time getting into pugs due to lack of experience. Find those people and invite them, and run together. Now you all have the achieves.
I see more interest in running ZA/ZG for valor points than running T11 raids from most of the people that would pug raids. A lot of casuals (who would be pug raiding) can use up all their time each week reaching their valor point cap.

Why pug BWD, BoT, or TofW when you can run ZA/ZG for better gear through valor points?

Once people have their valor gear, I see trying to attempt Firelands as more popular than going back to BWD/BoT/TFW to fill in the missing pieces.

I think they messed up big time allowing you to get so many valor points without raiding and with how time consuming hitting your valor point cap through ZA/ZG is, it likely doesn't leave most casuals with time to pug.

I do see some PUGs happening now that people realize the level of ner%*@e just to see the content, but once people have seen the content I don't see the old gear being incentive with so much new shiny gear available to casuals.

Totally agree. Eliminating the loot incentive to do the previous tier of raids essentially eliminates most motivation to organize and participate in the previous tier of raids.

Ulduar obsoleted by ToC+emblem/point conversion. ToC obsoleted by ICC+emblem/point conversion. And now T11 obsoleted by FL+point conversion.

Blizzard should have three levels of points - i.e. JP/xxP/VP - instead of two.

JP from heroics dungeons.
xxP from the previous tier of raiding + some amount from daily/weekly dungeons + additional amount from daily/weekly ZA/ZG. xxP buys previous tier of gear.
VP from the latest tier of raiding + some minimal amount from daily/weekly ZA/ZG + some amount from previous tier heroics raids. VP buys the latest tier of gear.

- Non-raiding casuals can still get previous tier of gear very readily, and current tier of gear at a slower pace.

- Raiding casuals can do the nerfed previous tier of raids, as it is still relevant in terms of gear and progression, and progress eventually to current tier. Raiding casuals can get previous and current tiers of gear at a faster rate than non-raiding casuals, but slower than raiders.

- Raiders can do current tier of raids and get current tier of gear at the fastest rate.

Voila - previous tier of raiding is still relevant, and players achieve gear and progress at a pace and level proportional to their investment in time and effort.
Its your realm. There are pug raids constantly on my realm.

<3 High populated realms.
06/30/2011 03:12 PMPosted by Milsa
The problem is that if you have not already done T-11 raids you will not get into any T-11 raids and you can kiss any hope for T-12 raids goodbye as time progresses.

Why not get people who are like-minded and in the same boat as you together and make your own guild? Now you can zoom through t11 and get your achievements with your i360 gear and then move onto the firelands normal modes.

Are you telling me you can't schedule even 1 day of 1 raid any time during the week? If not, maybe you should find a new game or be content farming achievements because MMOs require more sit down time than almost any other genre.
Server Xfer... we have them all the time over here.
The problem is that if you have not already done T-11 raids you will not get into any T-11 raids and you can kiss any hope for T-12 raids goodbye as time progresses.

That is the problem. It seems if you didn't start raiding back in January you might as well stick to 5 mans or quit and find a new game. Nobody likes being on the outside looking in.

I'm seeing more and more pugs for T11 not requiring an achievement especially since 4.2. So yes you might have to show some patience and find one(or of course start your own raid) but the option is there and people are using it.
I'm sure this has been mentioned upthread but sooo much depends on your server. On mine, when they're not talking about Chuck Norris or pancakes vs. waffles in trade chat, you can hear crickets. While on another server I recently made a new character on, the trade chat is scrolling by so fast with PuG advertisements (for just about everything you can think of) you can't keep up.

One thing I don't think Blizzard is getting is that people don't want to be a tier behind.

I disagree. I think Blizzard understands that very well. If you weren't raiding t11 prior to 4.2, you were already a tier behind, in effect. Blizzard knows that, so they nerfed all of tier 11 by ~20% so you can catch up if you choose to.

I think what some of the casual player base is missing is that Blizzard doesn't want the hard work they put into t11 to become obsolete. With the nerfs, they have sent you an invitation to come see what tier 11 is all about, to enjoy the relative challenge, and to get the great loot they designed for the first tier of Cataclysm raiding.

Why do you want so bad to skip tier 11? If you weren't raiding prior to 4.2, why is it so important to get into tier 12 right away?
We specifically intend for the 4.0 raids to be puggable now that Firelands is out. Grabbing some tier 11 by way of Justice, quest rewards, plus across the board difficulty nerfs should really be enough to get them going.

The patch has only been out a day or so though. I think it'll probably take a little bit before people really get it into their heads that they should be pugging the previous tier because it's not too hard to be successful. It's just getting people used to the various encounters and mechanics.

Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option. I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.

The issue really isn't the difficulty of the raids. It's really the fact that there's a shared 10/25 man lockout.

In wrath, a lot of folks would run 10s on our server (myself included) with their guilds, then join a 25m pug later in the week. With Cata, once you've done your 10m raiding (regardless of how far you get), you're not able to pug content on the same toon.

And before people start talking about alts . . . pugging is what casuals do. Most casual players don't have more than 1 raid geared toon.
06/30/2011 03:25 PMPosted by Concequence
One thing I don't think Blizzard is getting is that people don't want to be a tier behind.

Then step it up. Nobody is stopping you from raiding the current tier but you. Don't be afraid to go into FL and wipe on a bunch of stuff. Unless you're a guild with a lot of heroic modes down, you're probably not that progressed yet into t12 normal. Nobody is going to expect you to know a fight when everybody is learning it for the first time in these first few weeks.

The problem is, pugs want instant gratification. They don't want to go wipe 20 times to a boss just to push a new strategy. They don't want to wipe 30 more times to perfect that strategy and get a kill.

Now is the perfect time to do t11 for a couple weeks while everybody is still new to firelands. After that, you'll have enough gear to jump into whatever FL raid you want. My alt is 358 geared from 2 weeks of raiding in t11 + rep items + profession items + za/zg. I'm positive if I did all of the firelands stuff on him he could easily be 360. It's not hard to gear your character if you work at it.
I'd give it another week before we start seeing some more consistent PUGs.

Currently, a lot of people are piling into Firelands Trash runs to max out there reputation and others are piling into Heroics to grab any gear they didn't already have via JP. Once people hit the reputation caps for Avengers of Hyjal and grab all the easily accessible VP/JP gear, you'll be more likely to see PUGs. At that point, you'll have casual raiders looking to grab their Shoulder and Helm after they've exhausted all the other loot faucets.

On Trollbane, we've had a couple, but they were dwarfed under a mountain of trash runs. Hopefully I'll be able to get in on one sometime tomorrow or Saturday.

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