I don't understand Blizz's VP logic.

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07/14/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Beliskner
Blizzard should not press their LFG tool on people who quite simply do not want to use it, they do not push raiding on those who do not wish to do it and they should not.


They are not. You can get your VP from doing current content and heroic T11 content if you want.


Furthermoreven if somebody does find heroics hard, this does not change the fact that Raids are harder, thus should award better loot.

For the most part, they do. While Tier 11 raids do not give loot on par with current VP gear, one's selection of VP/JP gear is rather limited. Therefore, the reward for those who run T11 raids in conjunction with random heroic 5-mans is that they are able to obtain ilvl359 pieces in certain slots that are not fillable with JP/VP rewards. Also, they would be able to gear up faster as well, which in itself is also a form of reward. For current content, the same holds true. While you may be able to obtain a couple of pieces of 378 gear through farming Heroic Random 5-mans, those who actually raid the current content will have exclusive access to ilvl 378 pieces for select item slots. Not to mention they also gear up faster as a result of the VP cap throttling gear progression from VP alone.


07/14/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Beliskner
As for how the system awards one group over the other. Like I have said this encourages bads to not bother with improving themselves and rely on raiders to do all the work.

Where is the unfair advantage? Furthermore, you have no evidence to back up your claim, only speculation. If we are only relying on opinionated conjectures, then it is just as plausible that bads will be bads no matter how you set up the reward system.

07/14/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Beliskner
Furthermore it belittles the gear awarded from raiding as it is of the same grade as VP gear awarded from doing much easier content. This is bad for the simple reason that gear should be used as a reward for doing content, and better gear for doing harder content.

Only select pieces. As far as what you believe the reward for doing content should be, it's once again a case of your opinion against others'.

07/14/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Beliskner
If it truly was an offer to the better people to carry the less skilled players, then the less skilled player would not be able to benefit from this past a dungeon clear. In its current incarnation it is more appropriate to call it an incentive to everyone to use a horribly designed LFG system with the current community.

Whether or not someone else benefits more from the mechanic is irrelevant as far as the mechanic's status as an incentive for you to carry others. The asymmetrical gains may not be appealing to you, but it still does not give others any unfair advantage over you in terms of game progression.

07/14/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Beliskner
By appropriate I mean that harder content should award greater rewards.

And they do award greater rewards. Just not for every item slot.

If you are askng for greater rewards from a lesser task than that is feeling entitled.

No one is asking for it(current VP system), because it is already in place as designed by Blizztavision. Moot point.
If you guys got what you wanted and Valor Points were removed from 5 man heroics, these people would literally have nothing to do in the game - and then they would leave.

It's bad enough that non-raiders are still being forced to raid because the justice/valor point vendors don't even have offset pieces for helms, shoulders, main hands, and shields.

Basically, you raiders want to completely ruin non-raiders game play just because you are bored of running the troll 5 mans...even though you could just get your valor points from actually raiding the Firelands.

If Blizzard converted all old raid content into 5 man heroics when a new raid tier was introduced, a lot of these type of issues would simply disappear. Raiders would raid the intended raid content...non-raiders would continue to do 5 mans.

Plus, the only people I've actually seen do the old tier of raid content on my server are not the casual players at all but the alts of raiders.


You are not forced to do anything, If you accept that you can gear up to a certain point based on the content you can do than you will be fine. We all will reach a point where we cannot gear any further, people who participate in more content will have a higher cap, thus allowing them to go for longer, simple enough.

I am sure you will have slightly less gear you can strive for, but why do you deserve it in the first place? you dont. You are specifically choosing to limit yourself to one main aspect of the game. As such you must accept you should get the rewards appropriate to that type of difficulty.

For example I only play PvE content. I went through 5 man heroics to get to my current point, including troll heroics. If I was suddenly interested in getting into PvP would it make sense that I can achieve the same gear as somebody who arena's well (thus allowing a greater maximum conquest cap) and myself who only does random battlegrounds?

Let's be honest if something like this would make you leave than you would have more than likely left a long time ago, You will not suddenly decide to drop sub because you can not get an extra what 6 pieces of loot? Do threaten to leave unless you are serious, just because you can not form a logical reason behind why this is a legitimate design decision does not mean you stamp your feet because you don;t get your way. Please in the future bring logical arguments to the table.


Actually, I've been gone for 4 months (have a moderator verify if you like). I came back to see if anything new was added for people like me - looks the Fireland dailies. After I play through them and get the new valor point stuff, I'll leave again until the next tier.

If they want to keep people like me playing consistently, they can provide enough non-raid content to last until the next tier.

What you are suggesting is that they remove even what content there is for people like me so that we don't bother to come back at all.
07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
They are not. You can get your VP from doing current content and heroic T11 content if you want.


lets be honest who will do heroic T11 to cap. Furthermore if this is not pushing it on people than why do you assume it will have this effect of making people help others in 5 mans? because Blizzard is pushing it upon raiders.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
For the most part, they do. While Tier 11 raids do not give loot on par with current VP gear, one's selection of VP/JP gear is rather limited. Therefore, the reward for those who run T11 raids in conjunction with random heroic 5-mans is that they are able to obtain ilvl359 pieces in certain slots that are not fillable with JP/VP rewards. Also, they would be able to gear up faster as well, which in itself is also a form of reward. For current content, the same holds true. While you may be able to obtain a couple of pieces of 378 gear through farming Heroic Random 5-mans, those who actually raid the current content will have exclusive access to ilvl 378 pieces for select item slots. Not to mention they also gear up faster as a result of the VP cap throttling gear progression from VP alone.


1) Don't Assume they do, you may be projecting here.

2) You are right that as a raider I can gain access to 378 slots that you cannot. However, this does not make this system right in any way. Just because it is only a few pieces does not mean you deserve those few pieces.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Only select pieces. As far as what you believe the reward for doing content should be, it's once again a case of your opinion against others'.


It belittles the entire 378 iLvL. You do seem hung up on pushing the point it is only my opinion, did you have trouble reading when I admitted that and also said I have never said otherwise? Seriously, obvious statements like that do not need to be made.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Where is the unfair advantage? Furthermore, you have no evidence to back up your claim, only speculation. If we are only relying on opinionated conjectures, then it is just as plausible that bads will be bads no matter how you set up the reward system.


Unfair advantage - Bads get same rewards, Bads get carried through 5 mans. Simple enough.

It is only conjecture, but it is logical to correlate lesser rewards with an increase in the number of people who will not get better because they do not need to.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Whether or not someone else benefits more from the mechanic is irrelevant as far as the mechanic's status as an incentive for you to carry others. The asymmetrical gains may not be appealing to you, but it still does not give others any unfair advantage over you in terms of game progression.


You did not say "incentive" in your first post, you said offer. Offer and incentive are two very different things. Furthermore it does offer incentives to raiders to go back into 5 mans (which by the way is incredibly stupid, it burns people out from Blizzard trying to make boring content look reasonable). However, it also provide incentive's for bads to not increase their skill as their gear deficit in comparison to others is made smaller.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
And they do award greater rewards. Just not for every item slot.


They should be every item slot, I do not understand why it would be so much worse for some people to cap their gear progression out at 359 currently by just getting thep revious tiers raid gear from JP (which I am fine with). Raiders need to extra Ilvl to be able to do the content with the gear that was meant for it.

07/14/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
No one is asking for it(current VP system), because it is already in place as designed by Blizztavision. Moot point.


This really is nit-picking. People are asking for it by default if they resist it being changed, If it was changed would you ask for it to be changed back? Because that is essentially what you are doing by resisting it going back to 4.0/4.1 levels.

Actually, I've been gone for 4 months (have a moderator verify if you like). I came back to see if anything new was added for people like me - looks the Fireland dailies. After I play through them and get the new valor point stuff, I'll leave again until the next tier.

If they want to keep people like me playing consistently, they can provide enough non-raid content to last until the next tier.

What you are suggesting is that they remove even what content there is for people like me so that we don't bother to come back at all.


This is just for amusement, but are you aware that no Blizzard moderator will release you confidential information?

In that case the difference between the 6 pieces is relatively small. Furthermore I agree on this point, Blizzard does indeed need to add more content for non - raiders, this includes for PvP. With 11million players there really is no excuse for content being as irratic as it is. I guess that is what you get when WoW is the cash-cow.

No I am not at all. I am suggesting they remove in T13 the ability to get current raid tier from VP, changing it now would be impossible unless Blizzard wants to deal with an uproar. However, I would agree that they need to add more 5 man content to give you further things to do. For example ICC had one raids (12 bosses) and 3 dungeons. Apart from the difficulty of the encounters this was a good design.

I will clarify my suggestions, I forgot this is not the thread I made a few weeks back which got thread capped twice.

- Remove VP from 5 mans. Preffered.

- Implement more 5 man content and daily content.

Alternatively

- half VP gains from heroics.
07/14/2011 11:26 AMPosted by Beliskner
You do seem hung up on pushing the point it is only my opinion, did you have trouble reading when I admitted that and also said I have never said otherwise? Seriously, obvious statements like that do not need to be made.


So the entire thread can be boiled down to:

You: It is my opinion that things should be done in a certain way, because I personally find the current way of doing things unfair, therefore they should be.

Mmkay.
07/14/2011 11:26 AMPosted by Beliskner
Unfair advantage - Bads get same rewards, Bads get carried through 5 mans. Simple enough.


That's not an unfair advantage. They are not reaping any benefits that you are unable to reap if you chose to do the same thing they did. If you so chose, you could also get carried through 5 mans.
So the entire thread can be boiled down to:

You: It is my opinion that things should be done this way, therefore they should be.

Mmkay.


/facepalm

Of course if it is my opinion I think things should be done this way. That is why it is my opinion. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. Fair notice if the qaulity of your replies continues to diminish I will simple ignore your posts.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)


I think I am insane.

07/14/2011 11:37 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
That's not an unfair advantage. They are not reaping any benefits that you are unable to reap if you chose to do the same thing they did. If you so chose, you could also get carried through 5 mans.


So you want me to chuck a tantrum and get carried by others, stretching an already broken system? That really does sound mature doesn't it. If everyone went on this path, than the RDF system would be an exercise in futility.
The ONLY problem I have with the nerfed raids giving JP is that doing heroics awards you with greater rewards (VP) and they are easier and faster.

There is also no drive or reason to do the old raids at all. Any one geared enough for the heroics modes are doing FL. Anyone geared enough for the normal modes of the old raids are doing 5man heroics for VP.

I understand this was done simply so people could "see" the content. But people want to see the content when its relevant and not when there's something bigger and better around.
07/14/2011 11:42 AMPosted by Beliskner
Of course if it is my opinion I think things should be done this way. That is why it is my opinion. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. Fair notice if the qaulity of your replies continues to diminish I will simple ignore your posts.


Just making sure we're on the same page. Now I can move on to a point that I've been waiting to make:

There are also people whose opinion is that things should be done the way they are now, and therefore they should be. There are also people whose opinion is that things should be done in a way to cater even more so to bads, and therefore they should be. Who does Blizzard listen to? It's already been established that actual competent raiders make up a minority of the subscriber base. Despite this, Blizztavision has not completely caved to the baddie majority's demands. There must be a reason for the current arbitrary reward system, such as the need to keep good raiders at least somewhat happy due to their superior contributions to the community, etc. There are probably many more reasons that I haven't thought of, but Blizzard has. At the same time, there are reasons for Blizzard wanting to keep the bads happy to some extent.

Finding the balance between the two is a difficult job for them, but next to impossible for us players due to information asymmetry. We do not access to their mined data regarding consumer trends, demographics, psychographics, and such. Therefore, my ultimate argument is that Blizzard is very likely to have a good view of a far bigger picture than what we are privy to seeing, and thus their decisions are probably sound from their business perspective despite how "unfair" some forum posters may subjectively find them.

07/12/2011 04:10 PMPosted by Lorkanthal
it seems weird yes but look at it this way, t11 raids reward the points to buy t11 gear.


That's a significant part of the thought process, yes. Also, Valor Points are intended to reward top quality items, and we don't think that they should be trivial to obtain in any significant numbers. Allowing them to persist in older content once new raids are added would defeat that purposes.

Besides, there should be some added incentive to explore those older raids in the future anyway.
I agree with the main blizzard thinking, but it doesn't make sense when you look closer at it.

If 1 Normal Heroic = doing Heroic Sinestra AND Heroic Nefarion, ill eat my own face. I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it, if they just left heroic raids at 70 VP. It's the the fact that firelands normals = 120 VP, and now H-T11 is 35 that irritates me. Also, Blizz is SADISTIC for making a full 8/8 clear on 10M 960 VP...
it seems weird yes but look at it this way, t11 raids reward the points to buy t11 gear.


That's a significant part of the thought process, yes. Also, Valor Points are intended to reward top quality items, and we don't think that they should be trivial to obtain in any significant numbers. Allowing them to persist in older content once new raids are added would defeat that purposes.

Besides, there should be some added incentive to explore those older raids in the future anyway.

I think a better explanation is in order.


With the wrath badge system, we started with emblems of heroism that came from heroic dungeons and emblems of valor that came from 3.0 raids. We also had daily quests that rewarded extra heroism and valor badges (unless that was added in 3.1.) These functioned like the RDF does today. When 3.1 ame out, there was a new badge called "Emblems of Conquest." All of the previous pieces of gear still cost valor and heroism, but you could downgrade conquest and valor to earn those rewards without having to worry about farming Naxx specifically for vendor items. Heroics still awarded heroism and the daily heroic gave conquest. Then 3.2 hit, and the new badge was "Triumph." The heroic dungeons gave conquest, ToC gave triumph, and the dailies gave conquest and triumph. When 3.3 hit, triumph replaced conquest, and Emblems of Frost became the new one.


As you all can see, the older raids awarded older badges like before. Newer raids awarded the best one as did heroic dailies. The only difference that surprised me was that heroic modes still offer VP, but I expect that to be gone in 4.3 and 4.2 heroics still give some VP.


Virtually nothing has been changed since wrath in terms of gear progression.
07/14/2011 11:56 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Who does Blizzard listen to? It's already been established that actual competent raiders make up a minority of the subscriber base.


No facts to back this up. I never tried to present my opinion as statistically verfiable fact.

07/14/2011 11:56 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Despite this, Blizztavision has not completely caved to the baddie majority's demands.


Assumptive again.

07/14/2011 11:56 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
There are probably many more reasons that I haven't thought of, but Blizzard has. At the same time, there are reasons for Blizzard wanting to keep the bads happy to some extent.


No doubt they have reasons, I never claimed the opposite. I am merely claiming that their practises are flawed in my opinion from what I view as good game design.

07/14/2011 11:56 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
Finding the balance between the two is a difficult job for them, but next to impossible for us players due to information asymmetry.


Agreed see the previous point I made about your assumptions.

07/14/2011 11:56 AMPosted by Omgbubblelol
We do not access to their mined data regarding consumer trends, demographics, psychographics, and such. Therefore, my ultimate argument is that Blizzard is very likely to have a good view of a far bigger picture than what we are privy to seeing, and thus their decisions are probably sound from their business perspective despite how "unfair" some forum posters may subjectively find them.


I wish you could have cut straight to this point from the beginning, It could have saved me a lot of time.

1) Blizzard has their reasons for everything I am sure. Does it make them right? No. Is it even possible to be 100% correct? doubtful.

2) How do you think some things eventually get changed? For example the RealID debacle was changed quickly because of the uproar it caused, Now I don't claim this will be changed as quick or even at all, but it does not hurt to try.

3) As I said Blizzard has their perspective, just as I do. But I would like to mention this. I would argue that Blizzard is continually changing their perspective of how the game should be played. I am doubtful they know excatly what the right balance is yet, if they ever will. For example.

Classic

- Raids were for the elite, they were very difficult.
- Epics would never have been given out from 5 mans.

BC

- Attunements were used to artificially gate content.
- Multi tiered raiding was used, to both its bad and good points.

Wrath

- Raiding content was easier than it ever was. Many PuGs could clear much of the content.
- Epics meant nothing anymore, they dropped from every boss in heroics in a varying amount.

Cataclysm

- Raids are harder again.
- 4.0 5 mans could only get 490/1250 VP
- 4.1 Epics from 5 mans, 5 mans could get 980/1250.
- 4.2 5 mans can get 980/980 and 10mans can only get 960/980 (what!?!?!?!).

These points are obviously just the tip of the iceberg. But since I started in late Wrath I do not feel comfortable expanding further.

07/14/2011 12:01 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Valor Points are intended to reward top quality items, and we don't think that they should be trivial to obtain in any significant numbers. Allowing them to persist in older content once new raids are added would defeat that purposes.


In this case it seems the approach is a little confused. You do not wish VP's to be trivial to obtain, however, 5 mans which are trivial award these which awards top level gear?

It also does not explain why 10mans cannot cap. Even if it is only 20VP.
As you all can see, the older raids awarded older badges like before. Newer raids awarded the best one as did heroic dailies. The only difference that surprised me was that heroic modes still offer VP, but I expect that to be gone in 4.3 and 4.2 heroics still give some VP.


Virtually nothing has been changed since wrath in terms of gear progression.


Except in wrath those who did raids + 5 mans got more points. In this case it was indeed an improvement. I believe a combination of the cap system and that system would be appropriate.

Raiding = 980/980 points cap available, able to supplement with 5 mans.
5 mans = 490/980 cap ability, able to supplement with raiding.
I think a better explanation is in order.


With the wrath badge system, we started with emblems of heroism that came from heroic dungeons and emblems of valor that came from 3.0 raids. We also had daily quests that rewarded extra heroism and valor badges (unless that was added in 3.1.) These functioned like the RDF does today. When 3.1 ame out, there was a new badge called "Emblems of Conquest." All of the previous pieces of gear still cost valor and heroism, but you could downgrade conquest and valor to earn those rewards without having to worry about farming Naxx specifically for vendor items. Heroics still awarded heroism and the daily heroic gave conquest. Then 3.2 hit, and the new badge was "Triumph." The heroic dungeons gave conquest, ToC gave triumph, and the dailies gave conquest and triumph. When 3.3 hit, triumph replaced conquest, and Emblems of Frost became the new one.


As you all can see, the older raids awarded older badges like before. Newer raids awarded the best one as did heroic dailies. The only difference that surprised me was that heroic modes still offer VP, but I expect that to be gone in 4.3 and 4.2 heroics still give some VP.


Virtually nothing has been changed since wrath in terms of gear progression.


You can buy last tier's gear with Justice, which is basically what you were doing with Heroism badges when Conquest came out. Or with Conquest when Triumph came out. Or with Triumph when Frost came out. This is just a huge simplification of that system and yet people seem more confused by it than they did with all the badges.

07/14/2011 12:11 PMPosted by Beliskner
Valor Points are intended to reward top quality items, and we don't think that they should be trivial to obtain in any significant numbers. Allowing them to persist in older content once new raids are added would defeat that purposes.


In this case it seems the approach is a little confused. You do not wish VP's to be trivial to obtain, however, 5 mans which are trivial award these which awards top level gear?

It also does not explain why 10mans cannot cap. Even if it is only 20VP.


They want you to play how you want to play. If you want to run dungeons, great, you can get some nice Valor gear out of it but you're not going to fill every slot with 378 or higher. If you want to do that, you have to raid and if you want to raid, you're going to do the current content. Everything before it is out-dated so why would they encourage you to keep going back just to move forward?
Except in wrath those who did raids + 5 mans got more points. In this case it was indeed an improvement. I believe a combination of the cap system and that system would be appropriate.

Raiding = 980/980 points cap available, able to supplement with raiding.
5 mans = 490/980 cap ability, able to supplement with raiding.

The reason behind the cap is because competitive raiding required EVERYTHING. You could earn 77 Frosties iirc, which translates into about 4k VP in a single week.

The cap is there to pick and choose to remain competitive. If you make the raid cap > heroics, those who cannot do full raid runs fall behind. That mentality was what Blizzard was trying to avoid with the cap and shared lockouts.
They want you to play how you want to play. If you want to run dungeons, great, you can get some nice Valor gear out of it but you're not going to fill every slot with 378 or higher. If you want to do that, you have to raid and if you want to raid, you're going to do the current content. Everything before it is out-dated so why would they encourage you to keep going back just to move forward?


This is fine. I do not want to stop people from just doing 5 mans. However 5 mans should not get the same VP gear that raiders use at the same rate for less difficult content. A simple tweak to make the gain half as fast would be better IMO.

The reason behind the cap is because competitive raiding required EVERYTHING. You could earn 77 Frosties iirc, which translates into about 4k VP in a single week.

The cap is there to pick and choose to remain competitive. If you make the raid cap > heroics, those who cannot do full raid runs fall behind. That mentality was what Blizzard was trying to avoid with the cap and shared lockouts.


The cap itself is 100% fine in my opinion. However, people should be allowed to reach various levels of that cap based on what kind of content they can do.

Assuming that 70VP's were awarded for 5 mans this would require somebody to raid 5 bosses minimum on 10man to cap. This should be 4 as 10mans should award 140VP imo.
Is the extra few VP goign to kill you?
07/14/2011 12:11 PMPosted by Beliskner
In this case it seems the approach is a little confused. You do not wish VP's to be trivial to obtain, however, 5 mans which are trivial award these which awards top level gear?


    Valor Points are intended to reward top quality items, and we don't think that they should be trivial to obtain in any significant numbers.


Raids and the tougher heroics remain the best way to obtain large amounts of VP quickly.

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