Buyers beware: The 365 2h sword is 3.5 speed

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Not all abilities are normalized. Some are. Some aren't.


Well, that explains it. Also, I think this is the real problem here. The kerfluffle about a tooltip is really just a symptom.

The whole point of normalization was to make it so that a superior weapon truly is superior. A lower-level weapon should never be better, just because of the speed on it.

It's to avoid the entire nonsense of the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle, which was the best hunter weapon through much of Burning Crusade, even over far higher level weapons, just because it had the perfect speed on it for weaving shots. The whole primary stat thing was also to make it so that upgrade is truly an upgrade.

All specials should have normalized weapon damage. Frankly, I'm puzzled as to why they don't already. This whole problem shouldn't be happening.


The best chance to normalize all the attacks would have been with the revamp of talent trees and classes that came with Cata. I"m guessing they left some attacks non-normalized to weapon speed on purpose so that weapon speed isn't totally negated as a stat, but by normalizing some attacks they reduced it's importance. I'm guessing they were looking for a happy medium.
07/28/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Kahk
The one form TB daily's...

My bad, I was looking at heroic dungeon drops in the 346iLevel range. You are correct that the Blade of the Fearless would be better overall because of the secondary stats.

Not to derail though... Isn't expertise a little pointless for a non-tank though since you will be attacking from behind in most cases? So haste/mastery would be better than just critical strike? I am in no way an expert, just a thought/question.


No Expertise is useless to at warrior tank mastery is ok for a warrior but crit beats it out.
I'm a bit confused, and the posts here haven't straightened it out. Note that I don't play any plate DPS classes....

I thought weapon damage was normalized for special attacks a few years back. I.e., the weapon damage component of damage was normalized as if the weapon were a certain speed.

Is this not true? Is it not for all special attacks? Because, if it is true, weapon speed shouldn't matter over a sustained fight. It would only matter in fights where you swoop in, get a single auto-attack, and dash off.

Also, people keep talking about top-end damage and damage range. That seems meaningless. It's the average damage that counts. Having more big hits doesn't help when they are balanced out by more small hits. So, am I missing something or are they?

For what it's worth, tooltips should match actual stats. That's a no-brainer.


Compare these weapons:
i378 T12 3.6s Skullstealer Greataxe
i365 BoE 3.5s Masterwork Elementium Deathblade
i359 T11 3.8s Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood
i359 T11 3.6s Shalug'doom, the Axe of Unmaking
i359 S9 3.6s Vicious Gladiator's Decapitator

The simple problem is that due to the weapon speed the i365 weapon actually falls between the two T11 weapons, one of which is a clone of the archaeology sword, and it is only slightly above the S9 weapon.

The speed has made the BoE sword obsolete. You can get almost as good weapons for free without stepping in a raid for new players. And it is not a big enough upgrade for normal mode raiders to bother with (if we had been informed).

And for auto attacks you are right, the i365 sword falls nicely between the i359 and i378 weapons, and it doesn't matter if a sword swings at 3s for 3000 damage or 4s for 4000 damage, in a minute both will have done 60k damage or 1k DPS (that is basically the "DPS" stat on a weapon, the DPS from auto attacks.

But if you look at a lot of 2hand melee attacks they are not based on weapon DPS they are based on weapon damage. And they are CD or GCD locked, not controlled by weapon speed. A faster weapon will not let you press Crusader strike any more often.

However, CS is about 150% weapon damage, the 3s, 3k WD weapon will hit for 4.5k every 4.5s, or 1000 DPS. The 4s, 4k WD weapon will hit for 6k every 4.5s of 1333 DPS.

That is basically why 2 hand users want to maximize the weapon damage stat and when comparing weapons of the same ilevel the first thing we look at is the weapon speed and damage range and pick the slowest weapon available as that has the highest weapon damage.

So an i365 3.8s weapon has more stats, and because of the slower speed a boosted weapon damage range compared to 3.6s i359 weapons (if it were 3.6s then it would be better just from higher ilevel, but being 3.8s it is better again on top). So a 3.8s i365 weapon is a no brainer, it is better than a 3.6s i359 weapon.

However, an i365 3.5s weapon is different. The extra stats are nice, but because it is faster than a 3.6s i359 weapon it is losing out on weapon damage, rather than a double boost of slower speed and higher ilevel you have with the 3.8s we see the higher ilevel DPS gain being cancelled out by the increased weapon speed lowering the weapon damage stat.

Wow, that got a touch carried away.


07/28/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Kahk
Not to derail though... Isn't expertise a little pointless for a non-tank though since you will be attacking from behind in most cases? So haste/mastery would be better than just critical strike? I am in no way an expert, just a thought/question.


http://www.wowwiki.com/Expertise

Melee DPS classes will usually focus on the soft cap, since bosses cannot Parry when attacked from behind.

So you want to hit the soft cap at 26 to push Dodge off the combat table.

For boss-level mobs (which are calculated as your level + 3) the soft cap is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (200 expertise rating), and the hard cap is 14% parry or 56 expertise (431 expertise rating).

07/28/2011 12:23 PMPosted by Zamm
Wow, that got a touch carried away.


Perfect explanation!

Now in a couple pages when someone asks about weapon speed again you can just copy/paste this :)

The best chance to normalize all the attacks would have been with the revamp of talent trees and classes that came with Cata. I"m guessing they left some attacks non-normalized to weapon speed on purpose so that weapon speed isn't totally negated as a stat, but by normalizing some attacks they reduced it's importance. I'm guessing they were looking for a happy medium.


They failed utterly, as amply demonstrated by this thread. An upgrade should never be a downgrade.

What's more, looking at the retribution damage formulas you posted, none of them are normalized for weapon speed/damage. Consider Crusader Strike:

(((AP/14) * 3.3 ) + Weapon damage) * 135%

In this one, the attack power contribution is normalized, which is fine, but the weapon damage is NOT. Note that speed is never considered. If it were truly normalized, the formula would have to be:

((AP/14) + (Weapon damage / Weapon Speed )) * 3.3 * 135%

The formulas for Seal of Righteousness are clearly wrong. As listed, though, they are not based on weapon speed or damage. Just attack power and spell power.

Templar's Verdict is a straight percentage of auto-attack damage, and thus benefits greatly from slow, high-damage weapons.

Seal of Truth is also a straight percentage of auto-attack. This is effectively semi-normalization, as the damage applies when you hit something. Some of those hits are auto-attacks, which happen less often with slow weapons, so they are effectively normalized. The specials, though, which are on cooldowns or limited by holy power, are not normalized.

Censure and Judgement damage are based on spell power and attack power. Weapon damage and speed is not a factor. (This is good.)

So, the only ability that is effectively normalized for weapon speed is Auto-Attack, as it happens less often on a slow weapon.

None of the specials is fully normalized for weapon damage. Not a one. No wonder this problem is here. They should all be normalized.
I'm curious why blizz is silent on their reasoning here.
07/28/2011 01:04 PMPosted by Emodruid
I'm curious why blizz is silent on their reasoning here.


because they dont have a good response.. it was a Knee jerk fix like many things in this game.. and they will continue to be silent.

Kinda like the Cross realm "premium service" 14 threads ... 13 capped and they never said one word...

and still havent
07/28/2011 01:04 PMPosted by Emodruid
I'm curious why blizz is silent on their reasoning here.

Because after 4.2 was released the Itemization Lead went on two months of vacation?
I'm curious too, but really, they've asked us to stop making threads about it.

However, there are too many people who are not informed of the issue, who will still buy what they think is a 3k TED weapon, and who are going to be even more upset when they find out that they got ripped off.

No reason to stop bumping this issue, whether they want us to shut up about it or not. 2H DPS shouldn't be getting ripped off like this.


... who are going to buy this sword or make one and be like "hmmmmm.... why has my damage gone down....?"

Even worse... those that buy it now, don't notice the damage difference, and then notice the "nerf" later when the tooltip is FINALLY corrected.

Not all abilities are normalized. Some are. Some aren't.


Well, that explains it. Also, I think this is the real problem here. The kerfluffle about a tooltip is really just a symptom.

The whole point of normalization was to make it so that a superior weapon truly is superior. A lower-level weapon should never be better, just because of the speed on it.

It's to avoid the entire nonsense of the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle, which was the best hunter weapon through much of Burning Crusade, even over far higher level weapons, just because it had the perfect speed on it for weaving shots. The whole primary stat thing was also to make it so that upgrade is truly an upgrade.

All specials should have normalized weapon damage. Frankly, I'm puzzled as to why they don't already. This whole problem shouldn't be happening. An upgrade shouldn't be a downgrade.


That is actually up for question, at the most simple level T12 tank plate will not give better DPS than T11 DPS plate (ignoring my boots where blizzard muppetry made tank boots better than any equal ilevel DPS boots).

However, one of the fun parts of the game is to juggle gear and stats and making BiS lists. There are times, like with weapon speed where a slower, lower ilevel weapon is better than a faster higher ilevel weapon, and part of the "skill" / fun in WoW is knowing how to optimize your toon. You might do ok with a fairly random set up but there is the option to max/min and research for higher DPS.

The problem with the sword is not that it is at best a sidegrade, and at worst an actual downgrade, the problem is that because of the broken tooltip it appears that it should be an upgrade over all i359 weapons but it is not.

Our issues are more with the utter lack of communication from blizzard warning of this bug.

Their lack of explanation as to why on earth they think that making this sword so bad is "fun" for their customers.

And why they are not "doing the right thing" and working to either fix the stats to fit the tooltip (rather than the working as intended comment that helps no one) or working out ways of replacing the weapon for people who were misled into buying it, and will continue to be misled into buying it.

The fact that the sword is 3.5s is almost beside the point. The issue is that it is yet another case of shocking customer support. And in all honesty you can only antagonize your customers so much.


I'm curious too, but really, they've asked us to stop making threads about it.

However, there are too many people who are not informed of the issue, who will still buy what they think is a 3k TED weapon, and who are going to be even more upset when they find out that they got ripped off.

No reason to stop bumping this issue, whether they want us to shut up about it or not. 2H DPS shouldn't be getting ripped off like this.


They have asked us to stop making new threads about it, I have not checked the bugs forums for whether newer buyers are starting new threads since the locked thread with the blue post disappeared off the front page which would be an indication of whether this single active thread is enough.
I'm angry because they knowingly let people work for 3 weeks to attain this weapon without making any effort whatsoever to let people know.
I should not have to peruse other web sites to get the true stat allocation on items in game.
What is even more galling is these items were used as enticement for 4.2.
The terse "as intended" thread lock in the bug forums was an even further insult.

Gee I wonder if any other games are coming up soon.


edit: I'm also curious as to why a developer chose 3.5 speed, it seems malicious, if he/she was so unfamiliar with strength 2H melee perhaps they should have discussed it with... oh I dunno..... how about an ex-dev lead who rocked a 2H warrior in pvp.
I'm angry because they knowingly let people work for 3 weeks to attain this weapon without making any effort whatsoever to let people know.
I should not have to peruse other web sites to get the true stat allocation on items in game.
What is even more galling is these items were used as enticement for 4.2.
The terse "as intended" thread lock in the bug forums was an even further insult.

Gee I wonder if any other games are coming up soon.


edit: I'm also curious as to why a developer chose 3.5 speed, it seems malicious, if he/she was so unfamiliar with strength 2H melee perhaps they should have discussed it with... oh I dunno..... how about an ex-dev lead who rocked a 2H warrior in pvp.


Even with the ret treatment of the past I am not going to go that far (if only because it affects warriors too, and they want two of them).

3.5s is completely inexplicable though and that is why I want an explanation. It might be working as intended, but I think they need to clarify who on earth it is working as intended for.
... I'm also curious as to why a developer chose 3.5 speed...

... 3.5s is completely inexplicable though and that is why I want an explanation...

Here is what I think happened:
∙ Item was originally (test 4.2) 3.8speed ~3200 top end damage.
∙ Lead Designer did not like that it was almost the same as loot drop from Shannox.
∙ Lead Designer made a task that said, "Nerf this weapon by ~200 damage".
∙ Item Designer nerfed, at close to last moment, item to 3.8 speed ~3000 top end damage.
∙ Item Designer did not mark task as completed and went on vacation.
∙ Associate Designer renerfed item, at very last moment, to 3.5 speed ~ 2800 top end damage.
07/28/2011 02:21 PMPosted by Kahk
∙ Associate Designer renerfed item, at very last moment, to 3.5 speed ~ 2800 top end damage.


That Associate Designer needs to spend some quality time ingame and step away from the spreadsheets.
That Associate Designer...

== was the customer service you don't care for right now, not long ago.

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