How To Implement Cross-Realm Raid Finder

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Too many restrictions. They only need to do 2 things to make it work.

1.Modify the save to allow killing of bosses as many times a week you want. Only be eligible for loot on the first kill. So you now have an option to grind vp in more places rather than just spamming trolls. Same change for heroic mode.

2.Unlock heroic queuing once you've cleared it on normal.


Everything from the nbg loot system to the vote kick system to the call for arms bag would work reasonably well. No matter how complex the encounter, people will learn it given enough times to try it out. Guild only groups and trade chat pugging remain popular as the devs intent.
2) Realm community is already dead on so many servers. PvP servers especially have factions that have been decimated and the game play experience for gamers that remain there would be greatly enhanced by a LFR tool, even if it means a hit to the community on a few larger servers. Consider this a needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few issue.


Also, imagine how it would be if after a month or so everybody had achieves and could PuG with their friends from their server whenever they want. It would probably help enhance server communities because it would get more people involved.
No matter how complex the encounter, people will learn it given enough times to try it out. Guild only groups and trade chat pugging remain popular as the devs intent.


QFT
08/13/2011 04:27 PMPosted by Ashraf
Guild only groups and trade chat pugging remain popular as the devs intent.


It's also the reason their subscribers are dropping like flies. People do nothing at end game but grind troll dungeons and sit in Stormwind. If something like this were available, everybody would have something to do. Getting to that 351 ilvl would mean something. It would definitely keep you going when the levelling gets boring if you knew you were guaranteed to be able to raid at end game and you weren't just going to hang around spinning your wheels until the next patch comes out.

Hell, imagine all the people that would level alts to 60 just to be able to do AQ40 or MC40. It would be awesome to see some Rogues walking around in full Nightslayer again. Most new players don't even realize that content exists, or they just skip right over it and keep levelling.

This would kind of break up the levelling monotony and when you hit 60 you get some awesome new stuff to do, just like the old days, same at 70, same at 80. You don't hit 60 and say "Well, I've got 25 more to go...let's hop to Outland and get this over with..." It would be a great way for new players to really appreciate the heritage of the game and to understand what came before them, as well as give them the opportunity to experience the content the way it was meant to be played, and also give the Vanilla crowd a chance to reminisce and pass on their knowledge to the new blood.
08/13/2011 04:50 PMPosted by Necrømic
It is a good idea I made the original thread here on the forums and it did not take off hopefully this one will go big places and get to see the world.


Let's just hope it makes it to a Blue poster's eyeballs and maybe even to a staff meeting if we're really lucky. I know it's been talked about in the past, but it really is time to get one up and moving. Last year at Blizzcon they said they weren't totally closed off to the idea, but that they had some concerns about it should work and how it would affect guilds who want to progress over time together. I think that the idea of excluding current-tier raids will fix that (and simultaneously put an end to the JP Tier-gear debacle), and I've done my best to address every other objection that could come up. Let's hope it's enough to at least get a discussion going amongst some people whose opinions matter.
08/13/2011 04:27 PMPosted by Ashraf
No matter how complex the encounter, people will learn it given enough times to try it out.


This is flat out wrong. Bad players will either throw themselves at the boss until the RNG gods favor them and the boss dies, or quit after a few attempts. These types players do not learn encounters. That's why they're bad at the game. They outgear an instance so much that they can ignore certain mechanics, or they fail at that mechanic and let the rest of the group carry them.

08/13/2011 04:28 PMPosted by Ricardozara
2) Realm community is already dead on so many servers. PvP servers especially have factions that have been decimated and the game play experience for gamers that remain there would be greatly enhanced by a LFR tool, even if it means a hit to the community on a few larger servers. Consider this a needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few issue.


A small community is not a dead community. And even then, if you tried to set up a PuG at a good time, I can guarantee you would have no problems getting a group together. Now, the LFR tool will greatly damage what community remains. As others stated, with LFR you face no consequences for your actions. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from needing on everything you can and doing your best to wipe groups. Being vote kicked wouldn't matter, you would just requeue and cause more havoc. The potential for greifing is just too great, especially when you bring 10 or 25 people together.

Ricardozara, it doesn't seem like you actively raid. Raid encounters require communication and coordination that random PuG's simply don't have. A player can die in a 5-man and it won't matter. But with raids, in some cases you can't afford to have one person make a mistake as it might instantly wipe the entire group.
08/13/2011 07:41 PMPosted by Timewarped
This is flat out wrong. Bad players will either throw themselves at the boss until the RNG gods favor them and the boss dies, or quit after a few attempts. These types players do not learn encounters. That's why they're bad at the game. They outgear an instance so much that they can ignore certain mechanics, or they fail at that mechanic and let the rest of the group carry them.


You're right about what you're saying about bad players, but you overestimate the number of bad players out there. The vast majority of players I encounter in my gaming experience may not be great players, but they can adapt to encounters, learn, and do a sufficent job.
08/13/2011 07:45 PMPosted by Thundercleft
This is flat out wrong. Bad players will either throw themselves at the boss until the RNG gods favor them and the boss dies, or quit after a few attempts. These types players do not learn encounters. That's why they're bad at the game. They outgear an instance so much that they can ignore certain mechanics, or they fail at that mechanic and let the rest of the group carry them.


You're right about what you're saying about bad players, but you overestimate the number of bad players out there. The vast majority of players I encounter in my gaming experience may not be great players, but they can adapt to encounters, learn, and do a sufficent job.


It's easy for one player to adapt to a simple mechanic in a 5-man. But what about 3 players on a much more complicated mechanic? What if it was 5 players? Or 9 players? It get's complicated fast, especially when success is determined by whether or not all of these players can get it right.
How about extending the Real ID to include raids? Since you already know the person (probly an ex-guildie who moved servers or a real life friend in another server) it'd be easier to communicate with them. I know I have a lot of friends in my Real ID list who I want to raid with, but they're all on different servers. -.-
08/13/2011 07:54 PMPosted by Timewarped
It's easy for one player to adapt to a simple mechanic in a 5-man. But what about 3 players on a much more complicated mechanic? What if it was 5 players? Or 9 players? It get's complicated fast, especially when success is determined by whether or not all of these players can get it right.


I totally get where you're coming from, but that doesn't mean that a LFR feature wouldn't be wildly successful.

I think about Heroic Halls of Reflection... the first few weeks it was out it was a constant WTF fest... but after a few weeks players would blindly find their way to the cubby on the left. The game mechanic was the norm and was second nature. Sure you'd always run into groups where there wasn't communication on kill order or bad healer/tank/dps that would sink the group, but a "complex" mechanic really wasn't that complex. Even people with relatively few brain cells knew what to do after enough tries.

Yeah, when you up groups from 5 to 10, you increase your odds of getting braindead players, but that's why you have vote-kick features, as discussed earlier in this thread. If someone is so bad that they're holding the group back, there will be ways to remove them.

Also, most casual guids DO spend more time wiping then they do downing bosses. That's just the nature of raiding. Anyone who raids content that is at the cusp of their guild's capabilities know they're going to spend the night wiping, but there's a chance they'll get over the hump.

If a LFR feature is implimented, odds are most groups will spend the majority of their time wiping, but people will still be anxious to use it, because there will be a fair share of groups that will have success after a handful of tries.

Most anyone who is maxed out on gear that they can get from heroics and aren't in a guild that raids I'm sure would be willing to queue up for a raid a few times a week for a chance at an upgrade, even if odds are they don't down anything. If a casual who is fairly adept at the game normally spends 2 hours a night doing a couple heroics, they might start to do one heroic, and a couple stabs at a raid boss a night... and even if they fail in the raid, they'll have fun giving it a shot and even have some success every now and then if they keep at it.

You'll get raiders who have some sort of RL reason they can't raid with their guild in a given week using it, because they'll still want a shot at valor points or perhaps they're missing that one drop. These types of players will likely queue with some of their friends or guildmates who play alts and have a pretty good shot at success.

You'll have plenty of solid raiders who know what they're doing who will queue up on alts, because they've raided with their mains during their guilds raiding nights, but still want the chance to get that raid gear for their alts.

On top of that, you'll get people who maybe have faced a boss a small handfull of times with their guild, and they want to get more experience with the boss so they're more comfortable with that boss the next time their guild makes an attempt... so they won't mind if their pug fails, because they're getting something out of their experience by experiencing the fight a few extra times outside of their guild raiding night.

There's so many reasons people would want to use the feature, even if the odds of success are quite low. I expect it to be used by a large number of players and open up the world of raiding to a larger percent of the player base, which is why I'm so passionate about the idea, even if most of the groups are going to fail.

So yes... you'll have quite a few players out there who are bad, lazy, clueless... but you have more than enough people who would use and enjoy the feature, even though there's bad, lazy, clueless players floating around.

Yes raiding with a guild means you have an advantage of being used to the people you raid with and communication is a lot easier... but that's the reason they have luck of the draw in heroic dungeons, and I'm sure a similar buff in a LFR toon would compensate. On top of that, it might give blizz a reason to get their in game voice chat feature upgraded to where the playerbase starts to use it.
Well somehow my post on this got buried, but here's my thoughts on the subject. Look them over and add what you think is worthwhile to your original post. I also think though, that to lock people out of the current tier and to lock them out of heroics is a terrible idea.

The Dungeon Finder has been out for awhile now, and while its exposed most of us to some pretty awful players, more often than not, it gets the job done. We get our gear, we get our Valor Points, and we get our Chaos Orbs.

I think now is the time for Blizzard to consider implementing a Random Raid Finder. Below is a synopsis of how it would work.

1. You specify a minimum item level required for people to join your raid. This item level cannot be greater than the item level of the equipment you can receive. So if you put up a raid for normal Blackwing Descent, you can specify a minimum item level of 358, but nothing higher.

2. For heroic raids, everyone queueing must have completed the normal raid in its entirety.

3. The Raid Finder searches over your gear. If you have any ungemmed, unenchanted, unreforged pieces, missing glyph slots, or any gear with resilience on it (sans weapons), you are not allowed to queue in the Random Raid Finder. By "unreforged pieces", I mean that you must have at least 1 piece of gear that has been reforged. None of the gear in any Tier so far has been so well itemized for everyone that absolutely no reforging is required; there is always something that needs to be reforged.

4. New looting system with different buttons. Too much possibility of people causing loot issues, so you'll have to have a new system. Need button becomes "Main Talent Specialization" button, Greed button becomes "Secondary Talent Specialization" button. Disenchant remains (but will likely never be used). Code is implemented to "memorize" everyone's talent spec upon the death of a boss. That way, no one can switch talent specs before the boss is right-clicked and looted.

5. Vote to Kick from Raid - No cooldown, no penalty incurred. 7 out of 10 or 20 out of 25 players must vote yes for someone to be removed.

This is a rough sketch of an idea that was taken from a post in Raid & Dungeons forum. Look it over, point out any problems you perceive, and let's hope someone at Blizzard passes this along to the development team.
I am sorry OP but I find myself in disagreement with many of your points. While I DO endorse the idea of a cross-realm LFR (looking for raid) I find many of your restrictions to be offensive and/or that of a hard core raider who believes that only people who can spend 5-6 hours during peak times (creating more server lag) should be entitled to high level raiding. There are those people who can and are just as skilled/informed as those but simply cannot dedicate the time period (section of time not amount) that the Hard/core raiders can and your suggestions are too limit them. IF such a system emerges (and I sincerly hope it does) It should (imo) be without most of your suggested restrictions.

The idea of queing up for a single boss is nothing short of insulting, the idea of a 72 hour lockout is demeaning and the idea of being only able to do last content raids is downright elitism (ism's are bad, the Dolphin said so)

I can agree with a slightly lower Valor reward (if Blizzards intention is to promote in realm raiding) and the increased minimum iLevel requirement is a good idea (imo).

If the person's ilevel is high enough to unlock the raid level I see no reason to stop them and I would recomend against the idea of a raid leader... let the player's decide when they get inside.

Your idea on the loot rules however is fantastic... I totally look forward to that idea being promoted.

As to the idea that this bother's the Hardcores.... the question would be WHY is this bothering them... this is not affecting thier character's stat's or abilities in the slightest.... the only possibility is that it may hurt thier "Pride" that they are the top rank and by being top rank they are oppressing those under them.

Or better yet.... have Blizzard HIRE all the people who work during those "special raid hours" so that they can all game during the peak hours. That way EVERYONE can have a chance at getting that gear.... the idea of hard cores (imo) is offensive. I have another word for hardcore.... they are called "bullies" pushing the fact that they have somehow become able to do nothing but raid during certian hours while others suffer ridicule and refused entry into thier realms raids because of thier inability to get on during certian specific hours. If they were refused entry on skill or gear I could understand but because they have to work to pay Blizzard.... that's pure Elitism talk.

Restrictions on cross realm raids... pffftttt...


Spirit of Cooperation- The GOOD work together
Spirit of Competition- The EVIL compete against each other
Which are you?
08/13/2011 07:41 PMPosted by Timewarped
These types players do not learn encounters.


Hence the requirement to read the encounter in the dungeon journal before you're allowed to queue for it AND having to re-read it if you get kicked before you can queue again. If everybody at least knows what to expect, plus the requirement for gear, it's pretty hard for anybody to really fail multiple times. The fights that I've actually managed to be able to do this go-round, I learned by reading the dungeon journal and giving them a shot. If I can do it, why can't they?

Hell, the Zul's have mechanics and require coordination and most groups can't get through them, but that doesn't stop you from being allowed to queue for one and at least be able to give it a shot.

Please bear in mind that above all this tool is optional. If you want to run with your guild you are still more than welcome to do so. It will not affect you negatively in any way whatsoever if you are a hardcore raider. You will be working on the current tier anyway, which the tool will not allow you to do. It's only for past tier stuff.

I really don't see any downside...the T11 for JP's question gets solved because people are EARNING their helm and shoulders, the casuals are happy because they'll finally get to see the content, the hardcores will still be plugging away at the current tier, this is exactly what Blizzard needs to save casual subscriptions and give us something to do other than grind dailies and kill trolls. Smaller guilds will have a fighting chance to keep up with the mega-guilds on their server and earn progression and exp. Something like this could very very really save the game for a lot of people who are teetering on the edge.
I think about Heroic Halls of Reflection... the first few weeks it was out it was a constant WTF fest... but after a few weeks players would blindly find their way to the cubby on the left. The game mechanic was the norm and was second nature.


Exactly. It's just like Venoxis in the Zul's. The first two months that instance was out it was wipe wipe wipe wipe wipe wipe every single time.

But now, people just zip right through it with no problem. I can't even remember the last time I was in a group that wiped on that boss now. It just becomes normal because the players get better and adapt.

Imagine if Nefarian became normal. Imagine how much better that would make the playerbase and how much more exciting Blizzard could make future content with players that are used to that level of skill. It would be freaking awesome for everybody. Sure for a while it would be a big huge failboat, but after a month or so it would all just become second nature and the playerbase would only get better.
Imagine if Nefarian became normal. Imagine how much better that would make the playerbase and how much more exciting Blizzard could make future content with players that are used to that level of skill.


We would all be gods lol.

But I agree with your logic. My first heroic ever was a Cata heroic and that has been the norm for me since Jan. My first time doing the Zuls I wiped once my first time on Venoxis. I like the challenge and honestly can't enjoy anything sub 80 now. It's too easy and stale.

I imagine that if I played in Wrath I would be hating things now. People adapt. If Nefarian pre-nerf became the norm then raids would have so many new mechanics that average raiders would be as good as current hardcores and the hardcores would eventually become as good as Paragon.

Paragon will however end up part time devs and beta testers lol.
08/13/2011 09:03 PMPosted by Thundercleft
On top of that, it might give blizz a reason to get their in game voice chat feature upgraded to where the playerbase starts to use it.


Hey, I hadn't even thought of that. That would definitely be one nice little ancillary benefit.
There's some interesting ideas here, but if Blizz is going to invest in some major new mechanisms to help players experience more of the content / purpose of WoW I'd suggest they start with:

1) a more gradual ramp up in difficulty as players progress through questing, with clever feedback mechanisms that help players see for themselves when they are doing something non-optimally, so players reach 85 having been exposed to more of the skills they need to keep playing. Right now you can too easily quest from 1-85 without getting anywhere close to your character's potential. This creates a large group of players who are then rudely surprised, and often rudely abused by lfd mates, when they start encountering content with much stricter tolerances.

2) doing a lot more to help players find a guild or other team mates that have a compatible schedule, aspirations, and progression. To me the fundamental difference between a raid and a dungeon is not that it requires more players or even is somewhat more difficult, but that learning it for the first time absolutely requires real team work, of the type you're not going to get in a pug thrown together on a one time basis (Yes, you can clear old raids you overgear without this coordination.)

This teamwork is also one of the very best parts of the game, but I feel far too many players get excluded by the administrative hassle of not being able to find a team that they can be part of. Blizz does almost nothing to help you with this -- when you choose a realm at level 1 this is not an issue they explain at all; many players will level 1-85 in a nearly randomly chosen guild and realm, forming friendships and attachments, and then feel stuck when unsurprisingly that random match is not at all going to work for them in the endgame. Some players are understandably not willing to pay $25 to transfer just to get to the guild that matches their schedule. I'm not sure exactly what Blizz can do to make this better, but any improvements at all here will have big dividends for them and for their players.
This teamwork is also one of the very best parts of the game, but I feel far too many players get excluded by the administrative hassle of not being able to find a team that they can be part of. Blizz does almost nothing to help you with this -- when you choose a realm at level 1 this is not an issue they explain at all; many players will level 1-85 in a nearly randomly chosen guild and realm, forming friendships and attachments, and then feel stuck when unsurprisingly that random match is not at all going to work for them in the endgame. Some players are understandably not willing to pay $25 to transfer just to get to the guild that matches their schedule. I'm not sure exactly what Blizz can do to make this better, but any improvements at all here will have big dividends for them and for their players.


QFT
Hence the requirement to read the encounter in the dungeon journal before you're allowed to queue for it AND having to re-read it if you get kicked before you can queue again. If everybody at least knows what to expect, plus the requirement for gear, it's pretty hard for anybody to really fail multiple times. The fights that I've actually managed to be able to do this go-round, I learned by reading the dungeon journal and giving them a shot. If I can do it, why can't they?


There's no way you can tell if someone actually read it or not. Have you ever read the entire ToU, or do you just scroll to the bottom and hit next? The Dungeon Journal requirement is meaningless.

Hell, the Zul's have mechanics and require coordination and most groups can't get through them, but that doesn't stop you from being allowed to queue for one and at least be able to give it a shot.


None of the Zul dungeons required coordination. Apart from someone of the tanking requirements, if you failed at something only you would face consequences. Rarely would failing at a mechanic wipe the entire group. Zul dungeons also have no mechanics that require you to assign a specific person to a specific task.

08/14/2011 07:45 AMPosted by Ricardozara
I really don't see any downside...the T11 for JP's question gets solved because people are EARNING their helm and shoulders, the casuals are happy because they'll finally get to see the content,


But they already can see the content. It's not hard to put together a T11 PuG, even on lower population servers.

08/14/2011 08:01 AMPosted by Ricardozara
I think about Heroic Halls of Reflection... the first few weeks it was out it was a constant WTF fest... but after a few weeks players would blindly find their way to the cubby on the left. The game mechanic was the norm and was second nature.


When I got HoR as my random, there was usually at least one person who would get themselves killed somehow. However, it didn't matter because we all outgeared the instance so much that would easily 3-man the entire instance. On top of that, the cubby you could use to LoS wasn't an intended design mechanic. If HoR has been a raid, Blizzard would have probably removed that entirely.

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