In regards to 4.3 Tier and Restrictions

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The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.

And the 25 man death spiral continues.

Slightly imbalanced drop rates between the formats was the nod that Blizzard gave to 25 mans during Cata's beta in acknowledgment of the organizational complexity of running a larger guild.

Are you finally going to stick a fork in 25 man raiding in the next expansion?


They had to since this change would cut 10m off at the knees in regards to the gear up process. The other solution would have been to just remove class restrictions on tokens.

10m gear up would have been a complete and absolute nightmare. Look at the gear up rates in T11 and T12 HMs for 10m and then have this same scenario for reg AND heroic mode. 25m gear up is faster due to being less restricted by RNG.

10 and 25 on paper gear up at the same speed, but due to the random nature of class restrictions, token drops, and random loot, 25m gears up exponentially faster by having RNG play less of an impact.

Why are the ones who complain blindly and jump to the sky is falling garbage always low level alts? o.O

And the 25 man death spiral continues.

Slightly imbalanced drop rates between the formats was the nod that Blizzard gave to 25 mans during Cata's beta in acknowledgment of the organizational complexity of running a larger guild.

It wasn't "slightly imbalanced", it's "getting 0 tier shoulders or helm from your first kill onward for 2 months at a time". 25 mans will still get way more of everything and the stupid bad oens will continue whining about it.

And the 25 man death spiral continues.

Slightly imbalanced drop rates between the formats was the nod that Blizzard gave to 25 mans during Cata's beta in acknowledgment of the organizational complexity of running a larger guild.

It wasn't "slightly imbalanced", it's "getting 0 tier shoulders or helm from your first kill onward for 2 months at a time". 25 mans will still get way more of everything and the stupid bad oens will continue whining about it.


As I stated above, the gear up rate on paper is the same but when you factor in the elements of RNG, 25m ends up gearing up their raid exponentially faster as more drops and more players in the raid means less gear is going to waste.

10m can have 2 players on the Pal/Priest/Lock token and end up getting that same shoulder token for 2 months if RNG said that's how it shall be since it's only the 1 token per week. That's not fun or compelling design. That's just flat out frustrating.
From what The Skull said, I wouldn't assume we're getting 2 tokens for 10 man - doubling the drops is far from "tweaking," that's a huge boon. I'd assume it's something more like 1 guaranteed token plus a chance at a second.
Because 10m being completely bent over by RNG when every single tier piece, even reg, is a boss drop is fine?

Look at T11 and 12 HM token acquisition rates. 10m has been royally screwed in HM gearing this xpac so far. This would have been a substantial blow to 10m had nothing been done.


Oh and my 25m raid getting the same tokens/gear week after week doesn't suck? RNG is RNG. Get over it.

They said the reward for dealing with 25m's would be more loot and faster acquisition of loot. But it's not like they've never reverted any of their "policies" in the past, this isn't a new thing.

It's not something I'd quit the game over or anything. But the more and more casually I play the game the less I find my $15 monthly investment is worth the expense.

*EDIT*

Why are the ones who complain blindly and jump to the sky is falling garbage always low level alts? o.O

Oh I thought lvl 85 was cap? Was the new expansion already released?
Because 10m being completely bent over by RNG when every single tier piece, even reg, is a boss drop is fine?

Look at T11 and 12 HM token acquisition rates. 10m has been royally screwed in HM gearing this xpac so far. This would have been a substantial blow to 10m had nothing been done.


Oh and my 25m raid getting the same tokens/gear week after week doesn't suck? RNG is RNG. Get over it.

They said the reward for dealing with 25m's would be more loot and faster acquisition of loot. But it's not like they've never reverted any of their "policies" in the past, this isn't a new thing.

It's not something I'd quit the game over or anything. But the more and more casually I play the game the less I find my $15 monthly investment is worth the expense.


Because when they set up the drop rates, they forgot the elements of RNG. The gear up rate isn't the 2.5:1 like intended. RNG can skew it to 5,6,7, as many as it wants:1 which is more apparent and more gamebreaking in 10m.

25m doesn't need to gear up at 5x the speed of 10m like it's prone to now.

@Ter

Double still wouldn't be a massive increase since it's not like you're cutting out random all together. You can still get double Pal/Priest/Lock and no one to use it which more of a reality in 10m than 25m. It would just help your chances a lot more.

10m can have 2 players on the Pal/Priest/Lock token and end up getting that same shoulder token for 2 months if RNG said that's how it shall be since it's only the 1 token per week. That's not fun or compelling design. That's just flat out frustrating.

Yeah I know, the 2 months isn't an exaggerated figure for the sake of hyperbole, it actually happened to my guild 2 separate times!

25s get decked out exponentially quicker because none of that undesired stuff goes to total waste because there's strength in offspeccing, as opposed to not even potentially having representation of an armor class (mail) in your entire fixed raid lineup. My Rogue friend with 100% attendance didn't get an Organic Lifeform Inverter THE ENTIRE TIER 11 because it never dropped in normal or heroic, not even once.

Anything less than ToC trophies for this new valor-less tier is not going to be enough. Heed the warning before you aggravate off the customer base and have a future mess to clean up yet again in cata, guys!
Why isn't there just one token that everyone uses?
09/19/2011 04:45 PMPosted by Ashva
You're really putting this out of proportion. Relax.


I don't think you quite understand just how useful most 2 and 4p set bonuses are. The DK ones in T12 were pretty horrible (4p DPS was good), but ones like the Ele shaman 2p? Awesome.
You're really putting this out of proportion. Relax.


I don't think you quite understand just how useful most 2 and 4p set bonuses are. The DK ones in T12 were pretty horrible, but ones like the Ele shaman 2p? Awesome.


I hope the set bonuses for priests aren't awesome enough to make the lower ilevel tier worth it. I have zero interest in killing the same boss twice a week and the shared lockout was about the only thing I liked about Cata.
Because when they set up the drop rates, they forgot the elements of RNG. The gear up rate isn't the 2.5:1 like intended. RNG can skew it to 5,6,7, as many as it wants:1 which is more apparent and more gamebreaking in 10m.

25m doesn't need to gear up at 5x the speed of 10m like it's prone to now.


I'm willing to wholeheartedly accept your opinion if you can back those claims up with any sort of evidence.

*EDIT*

I'm really enjoying some of the evidence to support the "10m get shafted more than they should theories." I could name off several items that my guild has only seen 1 or 2 drops so far in Firelands. Having more loot doesn't make the RNG any better, you just get more crystals.
09/19/2011 04:47 PMPosted by Zurieal
Why isn't there just one token that everyone uses?


That would be the ideal state but I'm just happy that they recognized this as a concern period and are taking a step to try to fix it.
Just freakin great. THe whole concept blows. And this time my 4 set will probably be worth getting. Motivation - force people to use the raid tool. True result - people lookng for other entertainment options. Entire guilds.
The tier gear will be worse than the tier gear from Normals and Heroics. You do understand what that means right? Set bonuses will work but its like having 3 different sets now for the same bonus.

You're looking for a chance only for LFR and I think honestly people would only do for perhaps a chance to complete a 4piece or 2 piece. Yet that gear will be worst than normal raiding.


You're really putting this out of proportion. Relax.


It is the exact same concept of people raiding both 10 and 25 man back in Wrath, the exact same and the one Blizzard said they wanted to move away from.

By doing the LFR and Normal raids you will gear faster and complete Tier sets more quickly, the exact same thing 25 man raiders used 10's for in Wrath.

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I'm calling it what it is.
09/19/2011 04:50 PMPosted by Bullettime
Why isn't there just one token that everyone uses?


That would be the ideal state but I'm just happy that they recognized this as a concern period and are taking a step to try to fix it.


Yeah im just wondering what the draw back is to this design? There has to be one or else they would have put it in already.... surely...
Any chance at changing up the tokens? If all of them are going to be boss drops, can one be pally/priest/warlock, another priest/mage/warrior, another priest,dk/shaman/hunter, etc.? If a raid gets stuck on only one token, perhaps a little internal loot distribution can prevent pieces going to rogue off spec. Maybe even a 10% wild card token that is any class?

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