In regards to 4.3 Tier and Restrictions

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09/19/2011 04:13 PMPosted by Zarhym
That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better)

Wth does that mean?

Unless your next post is "we're preventing tokens from dropping that your raid can't use", no amount of "tweaking" is going to fix it.
Because when they set up the drop rates, they forgot the elements of RNG. The gear up rate isn't the 2.5:1 like intended. RNG can skew it to 5,6,7, as many as it wants:1 which is more apparent and more gamebreaking in 10m.

25m doesn't need to gear up at 5x the speed of 10m like it's prone to now.


I'm willing to wholeheartedly accept your opinion if you can back those claims up with any sort of evidence.


It's basic math.

If 10m only has 10 players and 25m has 25 players, 10m has 1 chance at a random token per week and 25m has 3.

10m has a 30%-40% chance each and every week to see the same token that no one needs, thus not upgrading the raid in any way.

25m has 3 chances at each token, giving a significantly higher chance at allowing at least 1 raid upgrade. The odds of just throwing away a token is significantly lower in 25m than it is in 10m no matter how far you are into the tier. 10m can realistically start throwing away certain tier tokens after just the 2nd kill.
09/19/2011 04:50 PMPosted by Ashva
All I was saying is that shes exaggerating the need to do LFR. I see only the 2 piece being sought after for any decent guild will quickly advance through normal modes and any great guild will overshadow that need in mere weeks if that.


The problem won't be as much of an issue for 25's as they get an extra drop per boss, but 10's will definitely be feeling pushed into the LFR due to how our loot distribution works.
Now THAT would be cool.
09/19/2011 04:51 PMPosted by Zurieal


That would be the ideal state but I'm just happy that they recognized this as a concern period and are taking a step to try to fix it.


Yeah im just wondering what the draw back is to this design? There has to be one or else they would have put it in already.... surely...


They probably don't want the chance that you could just gear up 1 person every week which most guilds would do.

Take your DK this week, give him his 4pc bonus in a clear. Then the Mage the next week. Priest the next. etc
09/19/2011 04:54 PMPosted by Bullettime
10m can realistically start throwing away certain tier tokens after just the 2nd kill.

First kill, for comps that run without warrior/hunter/shaman. Running without someone on Conqueror or Vanquisher is pretty unheard-of, but comps without Protector do happen.
09/19/2011 04:58 PMPosted by Kaels
10m can realistically start throwing away certain tier tokens after just the 2nd kill.

First kill, for comps that run without warrior/hunter/shaman. Running without someone on Conqueror or Vanquisher is pretty unheard-of, but comps without Protector do happen.

It feels like we only ever get Protector tokens. Ever. Our Hunter is fine with this since he's 5/5, but we keep throwing away tokens week after week.

It's beyond frustrating.
can you make t11 and t12 tokens purchasable with jp when 4.3 hits?

I just want a few cool hats for my alts that I don't raid much with, to transmog
09/19/2011 04:27 PMPosted by Bullettime


The final death blow to 25m raiding. Got more gear faster, they said. There will be proportional damage/healing requirements, they said. You'll be able to craft your legendary faster, they said.

Not that I really care, I just find it comical. Log in, raid, log out.


Because 10m being completely bent over by RNG when every single tier piece, even reg, is a boss drop is fine?

Look at T11 and 12 HM token acquisition rates. 10m has been royally screwed in HM gearing this xpac so far. This would have been a substantial blow to 10m had nothing been done.
What? There's an inscentive to run 25's because you get more gear. 10's are already kicking the crap out of 25's. So you want to do it even more? Bad idea.
Most of them are. Take the T12 for now. The priest 2p for healers is vastly inferior to the Pally 2piece.

Now if you compare the 4 piece the situation is vastly reversed. The Priest 4 piece is by far better than the pally piece.

LFR loot seems to be on par with H firelands or H rag loot at the least.


well i have 391 4pc, the set bonus would have to be AMAZING to go down ilevel and lose int/spirit since LFR gear will prob be a bit under 391.

It's basic math.

If 10m only has 10 players and 25m has 25 players, 10m has 1 chance at a random token per week and 25m has 3.

10m has a 30%-40% chance each and every week to see the same token that no one needs, thus not upgrading the raid in any way.

25m has 3 chances at each token, giving a significantly higher chance at allowing at least 1 raid upgrade. The odds of just throwing away a token is significantly lower in 25m than it is in 10m no matter how far you are into the tier. 10m can realistically start throwing away certain tier tokens after just the 2nd kill.


Your "basic math" seems to be missing some of it's supporting evidence. Please show me the math.

Also remember that 25m was never supposed to scale up gear received by 2.5. You were supposed to get more gear because of how much harder 25mans are to organize, run, and down bosses. Even the top guilds in the world have confirmed that the fights are harder in 25man, so there is no arguing that point.


I'm willing to wholeheartedly accept your opinion if you can back those claims up with any sort of evidence.


It's basic math.

If 10m only has 10 players and 25m has 25 players, 10m has 1 chance at a random token per week and 25m has 3.

10m has a 30%-40% chance each and every week to see the same token that no one needs, thus not upgrading the raid in any way.

25m has 3 chances at each token, giving a significantly higher chance at allowing at least 1 raid upgrade. The odds of just throwing away a token is significantly lower in 25m than it is in 10m no matter how far you are into the tier. 10m can realistically start throwing away certain tier tokens after just the 2nd kill.
You also have to compete with more ppl in a 25 man.
And there is the hook to get us into this god awful LFR tool. Tier sets. I think that just about seals it. I'm probably done with this game.

I don't raid 25 man content. I don't like running 25 man content. It is hectic and frustrating and I don't find it fun. But hey, if I expect to be able to get tier, I guess now I have to PuG raids, and run 25's.


Thanks Blizz.



Because 10m being completely bent over by RNG when every single tier piece, even reg, is a boss drop is fine?

Look at T11 and 12 HM token acquisition rates. 10m has been royally screwed in HM gearing this xpac so far. This would have been a substantial blow to 10m had nothing been done.
What? There's an inscentive to run 25's because you get more gear. 10's are already kicking the crap out of 25's. So you want to do it even more? Bad idea.


And you would still gear up far faster in 25m than 10m. If they tweaked the tier drop rates slightly, it just aids in 10m getting left completely in the dust.

A H10m guild and a H25m guild both doing 7/7 will always have the H25m gearing exponentially faster because less RNG restrictions and higher chance the loot drops, at least tier tokens, will be used by someone instead of disenchanting loot after the first or second kill.

Sure, you have to compete with more players, but you still stand a far higher chance of having the drop show up again or even multiple needed drops compared to 10m who could be screwed on tier drops for months at a time.
Ultimately, we recognize that making these set pieces available only as raid drops leaves players much more subject to RNG drop rates/loot rolls, but we have a couple of plans to try and alleviate the sense of burden that stems from the randomness of token drops.

The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.

In addition, due to tier pieces not being offered for Valor Points, another thing you'll see in patch 4.3 is a much wider array of desirable non-set loot (covering more slots than prior patches) available from the vendors, for those players who are unlucky with specific token drops, or who aren't interested in raiding -- although, once you get more details about the Raid Finder, we hope you'll find interest in having a go.

I felt this warranted its own response in a separate thread, but for those who missed it, here's my response to the original thread about tier 13 pieces being raid drops only:

<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456</a>

Keep in mind we do intend to allow tier 13 set pieces to drop for those using the upcoming Raid Finder. Similar to the difference between normal and Heroic versions of tier sets, the Raid Finder set will have a lower item level than the normal and Heroic counterparts.

Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


I asked this in another thread and I'd like to pose the same question here.

Is the current system broken? What is wrong with the current system and why the change to the new system?
WTB shard of Woe VP trinket.

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