Drunk discovery?

Rogue
so was a little tipsy and put my poisons on backwards deadly main and instant off. and was playing with the dummy and noticed i was doing like 500-1k dps more then usual then noticed the poisons and switched em back to see and it was the same about a 500-1k diffrence anyone else ever play with this or what.
I posted this in another thread about playing around with switching the poisons. It explains the reasons that IP should always be on the slow wep and DP should always be on the fast wep.

IP works on a ppm (proc per minute) mechanic. This means the rate of application is a certain number of times per minute (without skill usage).
So the slower your IP weapon is, the greater the chance per hit. That high proc chance of IP from the slow MH is applied to your skill usage.

DP works on a cph mechanic (chance per hit). This means each time the weapon hits it has a flat % chance to apply the poison (this includes skill usage).

I think you can see from those statements why its best to use IP on the MH and DP on the OH but in case its not clear:
IP has a much much higher proc chance from skill usage than DP does.


As to why your dps was increased my guess would be you play better drunk. I know several people that play video games MUCH better drunk than sober.
lolz irl drunk buff.
Lol! Being drunk on WoW FTW!
So continuing this line of thought, assuming the proc rate for your 1.8 speed main hand with instant poison is 25.7% (pulled from wowwiki) and the deadly poison proc chance is always 30% untalented wouldn't that mean you get a HIGHER chance to trigger your DP when using backstab hemo etc which again with the full stacking starts proccing your instant poison in your offhand?

Which then would beg the question (for subtlety at least) is there any reason to us a fast dagger in off hand (still use a dagger but using a slower one shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
So continuing this line of thought, assuming the proc rate for your 1.8 speed main hand with instant poison is 25.7% (pulled from wowwiki) and the deadly poison proc chance is always 30% untalented wouldn't that mean you get a HIGHER chance to trigger your DP when using backstab hemo etc which again with the full stacking starts proccing your instant poison in your offhand?

Which then would beg the question (for subtlety at least) is there any reason to us a fast dagger in off hand (still use a dagger but using a slower one shouldn't make a damn bit of difference.


Instant is PPM - the application rate doesn't change on auto-attacks regardless of speed. It procs (on average) an equal number of times per minute. The slower the weapon then, the higher the chance any given auto-attack has of proccing IP. Your special attacks use this % chance. So therefore slower weapons mean more IP applications.

Deadly is PPH - you have a set chance to proc it on every single hit. This % chance is not influenced by the speed of the weapon. So the way to maximize application is to put it on the fastest weapon possible. You'll have far more strikes from auto-attacks with your off-hand (especially with SnD) then you're going to make main-hand special ability uses (Since you are far from GCD-locked as Sub).

Conversely your Instant Poison application is going to nose-dive not having it on the main-hand since you'll have no special abilities to proc it and it will be solely going from auto-attacks.

So, to recap. Less IP applications, less DP applications, leading to even less IP applications.
nonono you are not thinking about deadly poison and how it acts when it hits five stacks. Reread it it says and i quote.

"Stacks up to 5 times, each application of Deadly Poison also causes the Rogue's other weapon to apply."

Which means once it hits 5 it starts triggering you Instant poison on the other hand.
Which with a higher proc chance on Deadly poison would end up causing a higher number of Instant poison procs (after reaching five stacks). I will say this at higher levels with more mastery and haste (both increasing attack speeds) this could be easily outweighed by the insane speeds you get up to on the offhand weapon.

I would need more time to determine if that were true or not. But it seems VERY plausible that at lowere gear levels it would be more benficial to flip the postitions of your poisons from the standard model (which for sub at least would mean the speed of the offhand would no longer be important since then INstant would be in offhand and it is PPM).
nonono you are not thinking about deadly poison and how it acts when it hits five stacks. Reread it it says and i quote.

"Stacks up to 5 times, each application of Deadly Poison also causes the Rogue's other weapon to apply."

Which means once it hits 5 it starts triggering you Instant poison on the other hand.


I know my abilities just fine. Thanks.

If you're applying DP slower on your main-hand (which you will) then at 5 stacks you will be applying IP from your DP slower. On top of this, you will have significantly less IP procs on your off-hand weapon then on your main-hand weapon. Did I go too fast for you?
after fourteen dps tests when using DP on main hand i ended with more procs of IP than when it was reversed. Five minute tests for each no assistance or buffs, just me.
10/04/2011 01:16 AMPosted by Moreman
after fourteen dps tests when using DP on main hand i ended with more procs of IP than when it was reversed. Five minute tests for each no assistance or buffs, just me.


Come back when your tests are 12 times that long. Five minutes is laughable. You're not good with the math are you?

Also, your first post in this thread was 35 minutes ago. I'd love to take a ride in your time machine where you've done over an hour of testing in that time frame. 14*5= 1h 10m
I guess my questioning was based around having additional time to proc from abilities over the number of procs when in the offhand. Because routinely i was having DP run out when i had it in offhand, and i have not had that problem since, and again my IP procs were higher as well. Perhaps i had 7 flukes?
Fine i will try doing much much longer dps tests and see if anything changes significantly.
10/04/2011 01:22 AMPosted by Moreman
Fine i will try doing much much longer dps tests and see if anything changes significantly.


Why bother. Clearly in 5 minutes on a target dummy you've shown up every theorycrafter who's ever looked at poisons since Instant went PPM back in Wrath (3.1?).

But, if you're really serious about testing it. See you in 5-10hrs. Do keep detailed parse logs.
I hate the new wave of rogues.
You seem awfully hostile towards someone making a postulation with some supporting evidence to support his argument who aslo mentioned that it could be due to low gear levels with a lower overall attack speed on the offhand weapon because i don't have 378 levels of haste and/or mastery.

I honestly have fairly poor gear on my rogue(very hodgepodge). But you did not give concrete reasons why it was not possible so i continue to question it, if you would like to point me towards irrefutable proof then that is fine as well, it would finally settle my purpose in doing this.

I want to know WHY, not be told because i said so and someone said so to me etc etc. again i implore you if you can point me in the direction of irrefutable gathered data i will accept it as canon but until then... i feel it is up in the air (from my point of view). If I still seem to have the same results i suppose i will have to invest more time in this idea and make a serious attempt at a solid collection of data to sift through.
10/04/2011 01:39 AMPosted by Marauder
I hate the new wave of rogues.


Blame blizz for making a rogue legendary...
10/04/2011 01:48 AMPosted by Moreman
You seem awfully hostile towards someone making a postulation with some supporting evidence to support his argument


You've shown no proofs.

who aslo mentioned that it could be due to low gear levels with a lower overall attack speed on the offhand weapon because i don't have 378 levels of haste and/or mastery.


We didn't have 378 levels in Wrath either. So if IP-Slow MH/DP-Fast OH was most optimal in ~200ilvl gear, yet you think this reversed itself, then re-reversed itself between 200-378. Logic, you have none.

I honestly have fairly poor gear on my rogue(very hodgepodge). But you did not give concrete reasons why it was not possible so i continue to question it, if you would like to point me towards irrefutable proof then that is fine as well, it would finally settle my purpose in doing this.
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t119013-cataclysm_subtlety_compendium/#Poisons

If you want further from when the change went live, you can spend the time googling threads from the beginning of Wrath.

I explained how the mechanics worked, Kiljagen long before me explained how the mechanics worked, you just don't seem to have any grasp for them.

I want to know WHY, not be told because i said so and someone said so to me etc etc. again i implore you if you can point me in the direction of irrefutable gathered data i will accept it as canon but until then... i feel it is up in the air (from my point of view). If I still seem to have the same results i suppose i will have to invest more time in this idea and make a serious attempt at a solid collection of data to sift through.


Again, you were told why. It's the very nature of PPM vs. PPH. The data corroborating this was gathered years ago. Nothing has changed that would change the effect. There is a tremendous amount of work and math to show it in full detail. I really don't feel like writing a doctoral thesis on a principal that doesn't need questioning.

Moral of the story. Drunks are not reliable at math. Waitresses love them for it.
10/04/2011 01:49 AMPosted by Renwald
I hate the new wave of rogues.


Blame blizz for making a rogue legendary...


I take it as a scathing indictment of the North American educational systems. I feel very mad, then I feel very, very sad.
!@#$ it. I don't care.

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