1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

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10/13/2011 11:13 AMPosted by Jonos
Casual players are more "afraid" of grouping with a bunch of jerks than they are the content (imo). I don't think time and difficulty have as much to do with the low numbers who see end game content. I just think that most casuals don't want to put up with all the b.s. that comes with raiding.


This is why the nerfs aren't helping. There are a lot of things wrong with the current raiding model, and difficulty is just one small part of the puzzle. I'm not saying I know how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed. The Raid Finder looks promising and hopefully will solve the problem of raid accessibility once and for all. I have my doubts, though.
I'd type out a longer and more detailed response but it'll just be ignored.

Simple fact of the matter is the core problem with raiding today isn't the time requirements or the fights themselves...it's the players.

Now we can go back and forth all day about it...but the simple fact is people with no experience have a huge mountain of effort to take to get in a pug raid. Nobody wants the burden of taking in those who can't hit the ground running. It was a problem in WOTLK too. People's expectations are too high and as such, many people have literally given up.

IMO, Blizzard has failed to make the normal raid content accessible from the start. Normals this entire tier has been vastly over-tuned. Raid guilds won't touch you unless you're geared and ready to hit their content ground running. Nobody wants to carry anybody and as such, raiding is quickly becoming an elitist-only club.

Sad really...many raid guilds are bleeding people left and right and yet they continually shaft their pool of replacements by requiring them to have unnecassary requirements. It's no different than requiring everyone to have a bachelor degree to get a job flipping burgers at McDonalds...fewer and fewer can or are willing to put up with the hoop jumping now.

Just one person's opinion anyway. Someone who has been playing pre-BC.
Hopefully the 'noob' mode of the looking for raid version of Dragon Soul will satisfy those that feel normals are still too hard.

However, I'm not sure that's even the issue with people not raiding. I think people just...don't want to raid.


Well, I can't speak for most people, only myself, but I started this expansion looking forward to raiding, did so, downed some bosses, but didn't finish any of the end bosses before the nerfs to T11 content. But when Firelands came out, the 2 hours a night, 3 nights a week schedule we ran just didn't see a "return on investment" when we started Firelands. Like most Cata Raids, the bar was set just a bit too high, but thats been the "problem" as I see it with ALL PVE content in Cata so far.
Might be useful to compare the rag stats to the shannox stats to determine what percentage of raiders killed rag.

If only 10% of players are even interested in raiding, that changes the picture quite a bit.


The point is that the MMO champ stats don't show players they show toons. If you have 10 toons and only one raids then you are looking at 10% completion rate.

The other thing is that there are still 8 weeks or so left in 4.3, with an extra 20k players a week completing normal rag (assuming the graph doesn't tail off) then they will easily hit 10% of characters.

Not every player is interested in raiding either, let alone every toon of the players who do raid, only blizzard will have a number for the percentage of customers who complete each tier as opposed to what we can pull out of it.

And the wowprogress data is useful for showing the massive loss of raiders going from T10 to T11 to T12, from people simply not raiding any more or people losing a spot in the change from 25s to 10s.

But remember that data is based on WoL parses, it has to be, that is the only place you can now tell the difference between 10 and 25 man raids. Again, blizzard are the only people who truly know how many raiders have been lost. And how many really do 10 or 25 mans.

The take home data from WoL is on the shift in raiding from 25s to 10s, and a bit on numbers, as you have to remember that in the year of ICC guilds will disband and new ones form, and it got puggable so some of the "guilds" might be a single player of the guild posting the WoL data for a PuG where the other 9 or 24 players were from a different guild, or the same run got posted several times.

The MMO data you have to remember is 2.7 million characters not players. The percentage completion is pretty pointless. But what is useful are the increases each week, and the difference between normal and HM.
10/13/2011 11:06 AMPosted by Tinjai
I'm pretty sure you're more in the "dark" than the OP is if you think 55% of US PVE guilds amounts to anything when compared to the WoW Population.


The raiding population is the only relevant number. Trying to shoe horn in people who don't raid into a raiding statistic artificially kills the percentages which can lead to the same sorts of "People don't raid Blizzard, WTF! :|" threads that were going on in Wrath* as there are now.

*: Yes, people were whining about their inability to raid during 12 months of LOLICC too, using the same FUBARed statistical comparison of total population versus content completion as the OP and MMO has done today.
10/13/2011 11:02 AMPosted by Mnevis
All it did was give elitest douchebag raiders more ammo to refer to people who have never done content bad and terrible.


As opposed to kind gentle persons such as yourself who would never dare offend a soul.


I only offend offenders.
10/13/2011 11:41 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I'm pretty sure you're more in the "dark" than the OP is if you think 55% of US PVE guilds amounts to anything when compared to the WoW Population.


The raiding population is the only relevant number. Trying to shoe horn in people who don't raid into a raiding statistic artificially kills the percentages which can lead to the same sorts of "People don't raid Blizzard, WTF! :|" threads that were going on in Wrath* as there are now.

*: Yes, people were whining about their inability to raid during 12 months of LOLICC too, using the same FUBARed statistical comparison of total population versus content completion as the OP and MMO has done today.


Considering the OP was discussing those numbers in relation to the entire WoW Population (I know the percentage he posts is most likely lower and more like 5%--see my first post) but throwing out a 55% number has nothing to do with the OP or MMO post when thats 55% of the 5%...
10/13/2011 11:32 AMPosted by Jesonora
Now we can go back and forth all day about it...but the simple fact is people with no experience have a huge mountain of effort to take to get in a pug raid. Nobody wants the burden of taking in those who can't hit the ground running. It was a problem in WOTLK too. People's expectations are too high and as such, many people have literally given up.

We shall see how the raidfinder tier is tuned. The danger I think is making it too easy, because yes it'll be accessible, but if the damage is tuned so mechanics can be ignored (and that's really what you're talking about when you say over-tuned... that you have to do it right or you wipe) then people will go, they'll have fun, but no one will learn to raid. I really hope that they get it right and it's easy enough to be relatively stress and wipe-free, but hard enough to teach people not to stand in the bad.

10/13/2011 11:32 AMPosted by Jesonora
Raid guilds won't touch you unless you're geared and ready to hit their content ground running. Nobody wants to carry anybody and as such, raiding is quickly becoming an elitist-only club.

I can't speak at all for the Firelord crowd, but the group I raid with had a while in T11 where we usually had to pug one or two people from trade. We'd do an inspection to see that they looked reasonably aware of how to set up their character, but more than a few times we had people with us for heroic maloriak or chimeron or magmaw kills that had not beaten nefarian. I haven't been guildless this expansion, so I obviously don't have the experience of some of you, but I can tell you that my group's hunter just started playing in Cata and was someone we pugged from trade chat.
10/13/2011 11:45 AMPosted by Tinjai


The raiding population is the only relevant number. Trying to shoe horn in people who don't raid into a raiding statistic artificially kills the percentages which can lead to the same sorts of "People don't raid Blizzard, WTF! :|" threads that were going on in Wrath* as there are now.

*: Yes, people were whining about their inability to raid during 12 months of LOLICC too, using the same FUBARed statistical comparison of total population versus content completion as the OP and MMO has done today.


Considering the OP was discussing those numbers in relation to the entire WoW Population (I know the percentage he posts is most likely lower and more like 5%--see my first post) but throwing out a 55% number has nothing to do with the OP or MMO post when thats 55% of the 5%...


Actually the 55% number is important. Remember there are no other achievements for killing bosses in normal mode until you kill rag, unlike hm, so that is the only normal mode cut off.

And 55% of guilds having killed rag is pretty good. although 1) it is parsed from WoL so a single PuG could upload the data from a run with a guild and make it appear that their guild had also completed rag, I don't know if WoL or wowprogress checks the guilds of the individuals in each run. And 2) not every guild uses WoL.

The aim for blizzard is to get 100% of the players trying FL to have killed him by the week before 4.3. It is 8 weeks or so until 4.3 so if everyone had already done it then the game would be in deep trouble.
10/13/2011 11:41 AMPosted by Dincinerator


As opposed to kind gentle persons such as yourself who would never dare offend a soul.


I only offend offenders.


You volunteered your insults unprovoked in this case, and I doubt that's an anomaly. Being Casual and completing Firelands are completely separate things, just like being a douchebag and being anything else are completely separate things. Going on about how elitist raiders are big bad meanies just sounds like a defense mechanism to me. Would you like a hug?
Blizzard have dont a poor job at making people see the content..

I like the Idea of 4.3 in making Raids like Heroics where people can Q and see raid stuff.


Suggestions: Make raids short, like Old Onyxia or BH, where you just fight bosses for 30min max and leave..
10/13/2011 11:55 AMPosted by Zamm
And 55% of guilds having killed rag is pretty good. although 1) it is parsed from WoL so a single PuG could upload the data from a run with a guild and make it appear that their guild had also completed rag, I don't know if WoL or wowprogress checks the guilds of the individuals in each run. And 2) not every guild uses WoL.


WoWProgress status is not coming from WoL at all, it comes from the Armory, and is either updated manually by someone (usually someone that just got a progression kill), in which case it checks armory for the achievements/drops, or it just finds it on its own, crawling around the armory refreshing guilds. I know Guildox requires five guildies to get the kill together for it to count. I'm not positive but I think WoWProgress may give a guild credit for one person's kill in a non-guild group.

My point about the 56% was not that that's a representative sample of WoW, but that it's the most representative sample of people that are trying to complete normal FL, which is the title of this thread. Not enough are trying perhaps, but that's a somewhat separate issue.



Considering the OP was discussing those numbers in relation to the entire WoW Population (I know the percentage he posts is most likely lower and more like 5%--see my first post) but throwing out a 55% number has nothing to do with the OP or MMO post when thats 55% of the 5%...


Actually the 55% number is important. Remember there are no other achievements for killing bosses in normal mode until you kill rag, unlike hm, so that is the only normal mode cut off.

And 55% of guilds having killed rag is pretty good. although 1) it is parsed from WoL so a single PuG could upload the data from a run with a guild and make it appear that their guild had also completed rag, I don't know if WoL or wowprogress checks the guilds of the individuals in each run. And 2) not every guild uses WoL.

The aim for blizzard is to get 100% of the players trying FL to have killed him by the week before 4.3. It is 8 weeks or so until 4.3 so if everyone had already done it then the game would be in deep trouble.


Be careful when saying "55% of guilds" because that can be misleading and is most likely not true. I would appreciate it if the person who posted that to find out the context of that number.

edit - Clarification was given

10/13/2011 12:05 PMPosted by Mnevis
And 55% of guilds having killed rag is pretty good. although 1) it is parsed from WoL so a single PuG could upload the data from a run with a guild and make it appear that their guild had also completed rag, I don't know if WoL or wowprogress checks the guilds of the individuals in each run. And 2) not every guild uses WoL.


WoWProgress status is not coming from WoL at all, it comes from the Armory, and is either updated manually by someone (usually someone that just got a progression kill), in which case it checks armory for the achievements/drops, or it just finds it on its own, crawling around the armory refreshing guilds. I know Guildox requires five guildies to get the kill together for it to count. I'm not positive but I think WoWProgress may give a guild credit for one person's kill in a non-guild group.

My point about the 56% was not that that's a representative sample of WoW, but that it's the most representative sample of people that are trying to complete normal FL, which is the title of this thread. Not enough are trying perhaps, but that's a somewhat separate issue.


I find that more believable that the percentage is of people attempting to complete FL. Still a small % when compared to the WoW Populace, but now there is some context.
10/13/2011 12:05 PMPosted by Mnevis
And 55% of guilds having killed rag is pretty good. although 1) it is parsed from WoL so a single PuG could upload the data from a run with a guild and make it appear that their guild had also completed rag, I don't know if WoL or wowprogress checks the guilds of the individuals in each run. And 2) not every guild uses WoL.


WoWProgress status is not coming from WoL at all, it comes from the Armory, and is either updated manually by someone (usually someone that just got a progression kill), in which case it checks armory for the achievements/drops, or it just finds it on its own, crawling around the armory refreshing guilds. I know Guildox requires five guildies to get the kill together for it to count. I'm not positive but I think WoWProgress may give a guild credit for one person's kill in a non-guild group.

My point about the 56% was not that that's a representative sample of WoW, but that it's the most representative sample of people that are trying to complete normal FL, which is the title of this thread. Not enough are trying perhaps, but that's a somewhat separate issue.


WoWprogress can not come from the armory as it gives 10/25 man data for T11 and T12 which is not on the armory, only a WoL log shows that.
Blizzard have dont a poor job at making people see the content..

I like the Idea of 4.3 in making Raids like Heroics where people can Q and see raid stuff.


Suggestions: Make raids short, like Old Onyxia or BH, where you just fight bosses for 30min max and leave..


This is ok for some raids not all, but its not blizzards fault people aren't seeing content, 3 weeks ago i was all heroic and ZG/ZA geared, got into a guild that started a new 10 man FL with only 2 people that have ever stepped foot in FL, and tuesday we cleared it in less than 3 hours and are starting heroic mode next week. FL is so easy that if you don't raid its your fault/choice.
Blizzard have dont a poor job at making people see the content..

I like the Idea of 4.3 in making Raids like Heroics where people can Q and see raid stuff.


Suggestions: Make raids short, like Old Onyxia or BH, where you just fight bosses for 30min max and leave..


I don't mind longer raids, do I want an hour of trash clearing before the first boss though? No. Firelands, by putting so much trash in the beginning, made it much more difficult for those who have short raid nights and just kind of a "omg trash is respawing... guess raid is over" moments.

I enjoy the model of having the first boss relatively close to the beginning of the instance (like Blackwing lair) :D
10/13/2011 12:08 PMPosted by Zamm
WoWprogress can not come from the armory as it gives 10/25 man data for T11 and T12 which is not on the armory, only a WoL log shows that.

And yet it does.

If 25 (or 22 or 19 or whatever) all get the firelands achievement together, WoWProgress makes the quite reasonable assumption that those 25 people were in a 25man raid. Same for 10 people. You also have the ability to register as guild administrator and set the size of raid you complete. Programmers will not be stumped long by something as trivial as combined achievements.

Do you know about a kill that <Perdition> of Quel'dori just got?
http://www.wowprogress.com/update_progress/us/quel-dorei/Perdition
Enter 5 participating character names and the site will get right on checking their armories.
Logs have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Blizzard have dont a poor job at making people see the content..

I like the Idea of 4.3 in making Raids like Heroics where people can Q and see raid stuff.


Suggestions: Make raids short, like Old Onyxia or BH, where you just fight bosses for 30min max and leave..


This is ok for some raids not all, but its not blizzards fault people aren't seeing content, 3 weeks ago i was all heroic and ZG/ZA geared, got into a guild that started a new 10 man FL with only 2 people that have ever stepped foot in FL, and tuesday we cleared it in less than 3 hours and are starting heroic mode next week. FL is so easy that if you don't raid its your fault/choice.


Except for the fact that it has only been like that for the past 2 or 3 weeks. Think about the 9 months Cataclysm has been out where that HAS NOT been the case. The WoW Population has had a significant amount of time to "burn out". Don't oversimplify the issue.
Blizzard have dont a poor job at making people see the content..

I like the Idea of 4.3 in making Raids like Heroics where people can Q and see raid stuff.


Suggestions: Make raids short, like Old Onyxia or BH, where you just fight bosses for 30min max and leave..


This is ok for some raids not all, but its not blizzards fault people aren't seeing content, 3 weeks ago i was all heroic and ZG/ZA geared, got into a guild that started a new 10 man FL with only 2 people that have ever stepped foot in FL, and tuesday we cleared it in less than 3 hours and are starting heroic mode next week. FL is so easy that if you don't raid its your fault/choice.


This is utterly wrong. Not everyone is equally skilled. It is blizzards job to see that just about everyone who wants to see rag dead will have done so by the last week of 4.2. But it is also blizzards job to keep progression slow enough that they don't lose subs for a few weeks when people finish rag early and go and do something else for a month or two.

They have made their lives harder by only having 7 bosses. But the progression doesn't seem all that bad at the moment as we are a half to two thirds of the way through the content patch.

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