Does Kiting melee really work in pvp?

Hunter
11/02/2011 11:07 AMPosted by Xizwhoa
Forget about jumping charge, just skill him down he should have no chance.


I like that, should be the answer to every problem, "just skill him down", enough said. But what if the warrior counters with his own "skill you down"? Could get technical.

Anyways back to reality I can see that your MM. If your talking about a duel vs a warrior I'd say the odds are against you, yes you can kite him fairly well but I assume that war isn't garbage and can at least clock you a couple times, and as MM while your health is dropping, it aint really ever going to go back up. While a war can recover his whole health bar basically. MM is a good arena spec, not so much in dueling imo. Anyone you fight you basically have to kill twice, specially with melee classes. At least BM has some decent heals and are much better at putting out damage while kiting. Marks can barely put out when kiting, so in a duel vs equal skill I say MM loses, but bm has a chance. MM>BM arena, BM>MM dueling.
If you're having problems kiting, it is poor CD management on your part.

EDIT: In other words.

If you're having kiting problems, I feel bad for you son.
I got 99 problems, but a melee isn't one.
11/03/2011 11:43 AMPosted by Recöil
Marks can barely put out when kiting

This is incorrect. I NEVER stop moving. Ever. And I put out a lot of DPS. I think BM has more dps in PvP but MM will be about the same between moving and not moving.

Edit: Just wanted to add I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but just wanted to point out that one thing.
Against a GOOD warrior/rogue/mage....you as a hunter are not gonnabe able to keep yourself distanced for long. A warrior has too many gap closers for you simply just kite him all day. A ret pally you can kite, because of how stupid their snare dispel and mana expenses are right now. A good mage will just keep you slowed and nova'd and spell steal your master's call. And eventually you will have to sit still and cast to get focus back to do some kind of damage, good luck doing with a competent person who knows how distance and gap closing works. Hunter is just in a sad state right now.
MM

Scatter Shot, Deterrance, Disengage, Trap, Spider/Monkey (stun/trap), Masters Call, Trinket, Glyph Conc Shot, Feign Death (mid cast), Silence, oh and a little thing called Readiness and round and round the rosie we go again.

Hunters have plenty of things to play with imo, you wanna just explode everyones head all the time tho? Come on now, gotta die sometimes.

Druids are a pain in the !@#, 2 gap closers, shift out of snares, stuns and insane damage. Use your pet root, since they can't shift out of roots anymore, while they're rooted get space and drop a freezing trap by yourself to catch their charge/skull bash, if in trouble use scatter shot then fear beast.

Against rogues, keep your flare up and freezing trap down when they vanish, assuming you're MM for pvp hope for piercing shot's proc.
Actually, if a druid is stupid enough to be in bear or cat form you can fear them with scare beast and its not a cd. If they are specced feral then you could literally make them too scared to go into an animal form. However if they are competent, they'll just use their shifting trick to break it...Rogues however, you dont need flare at all. Yes for the initiation but after that, a hunters mark will fix your problem.

My tips: Scatter shot the suckers stupid enough to be near enough for you to use it and then disengage, or do what I do if Im on a hill. Scatter, disengage off ledge, parachute, rain death upon the melee because they can't hit you in the air.

Also @Hugecrits. Why do people keep saying we have no viable way of keeping ourselves alive, even hunters, when we have all these tools? Are we the only ones who know about them?
As Ret I do ok against hunters because I also love to play my Hunter, and likewise dont have too many problems against kiting most Ret Paladins....

Theres alot of good advice in this thread....I never thought of putting /stopattack into a macro with tranq shot so I can tranq a frozen target without freeing them from the trap... I find Rogues, Feral Druids, GOOD warriors, Good Rets and of course everyones favorite Frost Mages, to be difficult to kite.... I hate Shadow Priests with a passion as well lol... One good way to kite ive learned is to do the jump shot spin move, and also to practice running sideways to a target you are kiting.... you can shoot in 90 Degree arc so you can run opposet of your target while still shooting them sideways like... it looks funky but it works.... Also I know youre supposed to "jump" a warriors charge but Im pretty terrible at it lol.....I always time it wrong.


I also love the Crab pet over the spider. Even though the spiders ranged root is better than the crabs, the crab has a utility that is GREAT for dots.... Intervene is about the only defense Ive really found when you get dotted up.... you make your pet do "Last Stand" then keybind Intervene so you can have it on demand, It will put up an absorbtion shield on you for part of your pets total health....around 60K damage or around 80k if the crab has last stand on when its activated....I also like the crabs charge ability that stops casters and stops a melee chasing you for a second, then you can pin him and get some distance....
Oh my god. Holy crap, mind blown. I was reading Casius' ultra-long post about kiting rogues on the first page, but I never look at the poster name, so I didn't realize who it was from. I'm reading through, envisioning all these fights I've had with the only hunter who's ever schooled me repeatedly, and thinking "wow this must be the trick he was using" for each move. The hunter's name was Casius from Shattered Hand. I just looked at who was posting.

I don't even know what to do with myself right now.
I just wanted to add about feral. I play feral. My feral is in only all vicious... so NOT great gear but average to okay to poke around in bgs with.

Most hunters i wreck. I mean i wreck them hard. I don't gun for them and i don't grief them, but they get wrecked.

HOWEVER. A really good hunter is a nightmare as a feral. If you go to the druid boards you will see feral there asking for any help at all about how to beat hunters and are basically told... "if the hunter is really good you lose".

As BM your disengage has a really short CD and you have intimidate. As MM you have the roots. Also the scattershot into a fear is win. I am pretty happy to see hunter cast fear otherwise cause i will just shift it and it means they are not shooting me in the face. Against a good hunter if you feral charge in cat you are dead... cause you need it on a shorter CD AND it doesn't root them. Feral charge bear is win. It has a shorter cd and it immobilizes them in place.

Also what the hunters said about the dot bleeds. A hunter that trinkets IMMEDIATELY and then use some cd to keep me from getting my rip up on them is a good hunter and then i know i am in for a real fight. A hunter that lets me get my full dots on and only then tries to kite me has pretty much decided to go for the achievement for that i guess.

Hunters can kite feral. Hunters can beat feral. On my hunter i like to fight feral to practice kiting. If you just kill one once they will hunt you so its easy to get practice.

On my hunter i am learning this as well. I can kite warriors comfy. I have trouble with DK. It could also be gear issues. They are hard and rogues are the hardest for me atm.

Also @Drazzul i have seen some of Casius's dueling videos and OMG. Yes. That is one scary hunter right there.

The only downside to much of this advice is that it assumes too many ideals: that the hunter has unlimited space in which to operate (because we never go into the WSG flagroom or AV bunker?), that their opponent has no buffs but self buffs on themselves, that the fight will remain 1 vs 1 for the duration.

I think BenFranklin above hit on a crucial point: make sure they're blowing ther gap closer CDs before you're using your gap openers.

The only thing I can add is: don't tunnel vision on your opponent. Look around to see what is where, where your allies are, and what enemies are coming downfield. I've successfully "won" fights by kiting enemies right into the path of teammates who have just rezzed.

Also: Start thinking 2-3 moves ahead & anticipating your enemy's most likely next move. Chain your CDs to get the most out of them. Learn to love your traps and practice using the trap launcher while move in different directions.
11/02/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Casius
Snake trap is a bad idea if they realize they can victory rush every snake to full life.


Warriors haven't been able to use Victory Rush on snakes for a long time.
11/02/2011 11:07 AMPosted by Xizwhoa
Rets dispel so you can get freedoms off con shot up.


Rets can spam cleanse Concussive Shots off themselves. You have to silencing shot them to prevent that and that's on a cd obviously. Not saying rets can't be kited- they can- but it's not just a matter of using concussive shot if they know to cleanse it off themselves.
This is incorrect. I NEVER stop moving. Ever. And I put out a lot of DPS. I think BM has more dps in PvP but MM will be about the same between moving and not moving.


Well as BM half your dps is your pet. When kiting you do spend sometime in melee, time to lay a trap, to disengage, to master's call, or the delay inb/t cds, and you gotta grin and bear for a few, or even sitting in detterence, or disarmed, at all these times your pet is dpsing and you can kill command.

When your MM all those times you are pretty much silenced. Those few seconds or whatever add up, BM is like a melee/range, while MM is all range. Also crouching tiger allows BM to disengage alot more. Stun > silencing shot, when it comes to kiting.

Just voicing my opinion, I'm not a BM fanboy, both my specs are MM, pve and pvp, so I know where your coming from too, I've just noticed a huge difference in dueling and in arenas.

11/03/2011 11:00 AMPosted by Shadomeld

I don't believe you get focus back with Steady Shot when a mage is ice blocked.


Actually I think I've noticed so too. But imo that's a bug. Where does it say that if a steady/cobra shot doesnt do any damage, it shouldn't return any focus. So I always use steady to keep my haste buff up, and in the hope of getting proper focus back.


We do get focus back by virtue of recovery. We just don't get the full amount from the steady/cobra shot we're supposed to get. Using steady/cobra is a good idea on ice block because you're not using focus that way and you're in position (with at lease some recovered focus) to be effective when the ice block breaks.

At that point, a hunter better have a good burst shot or cc shot ready and already firing. Focus management is always important, during kiting it is critical.

The point of kiting is to eventually draw the opponent into a position where he is out of mana/energy/rage, etc. All his gcd's are blown but the hunter is ready and gtg.

Takes practice. Ya gotta love being a hunter to be effective.
11/04/2011 10:30 AMPosted by Aewinn
Rets dispel so you can get freedoms off con shot up.


Rets can spam cleanse Concussive Shots off themselves. You have to silencing shot them to prevent that and that's on a cd obviously. Not saying rets can't be kited- they can- but it's not just a matter of using concussive shot if they know to cleanse it off themselves.


I eat rets for breakfast.

If a hunter is having trouble kiting and killing ret pallies try analyzing your kiting techniques. Several hunters here have discussed the various cc shots (tranquilizer, silencing, concussive, traps) that will help subdue your opponent. Don't forget your pet, even if you're SV. Managing his kill command and Master's Call will help. Yes they can spam cleanse but when they are being hit with a variety of shots even a seasoned pvp'er can be overwhelmed.

This takes practice.
The only time rets can be an issue is if they drop on top of you in world pvp, and are like raid buffed so you have a very small chance to get wings off and they get a couple hammers off.

If it's just the ret with his own buffs, and you know he's coming you should easily be able to deal with him through good use of Scatter traps, monkey blind, and conc + silencing shot (he can't dispel or freedom snares/roots when silenced) to gain distance. Don't trinket repentance.

In arena, it depends on comp, but facing ret/dk/healer teams, I like to sit on his partner and focus tranq him clean so when he does wing I can get it off in 1-2 tries easily since he won't have rolling hots or a bunch of grace stacks etc to get through.

I use this macro in pvp.

#showtooltip Concussive Shot
/stopcasting
/stopcasting
/stopcasting
/cast [target=mouseover, harm] [harm] Concussive Shot


I have stop casting in there a bunch to cancel any cast I'm doing if in fox and this macro will Concussive shot any target underneath my mouse cursor. If there is NO target underneath my mouse cursor, it will Conc shot my current target. I used this macro with one "/stopcasting" line, but sometimes it didn't always cancel my cast bar which was incredibly annoying. I recommend in very important abilities putting in 2-3 lines as I've never had an issue with 2-3 of them in a macro. Just don't put it in a place you may bump or tap too much so you aren't accidentally cancelling casts all the time.

This is perfect for comps like WLS, RLS, RMP, Double melee, where you're the train target and you're killing the melee's partner. You just keep pressuring your target, and mouseover conc shot the melee you're not on and kite him.

Also here's a cool one I picked up.

#showtooltip Wing Clip
/stopcasting
/targetenemy [nodead, harm]
/cast Wing Clip
/targetlasttarget
/cleartarget
/targetlasttarget
/stopmacro

This will Wing Clip the enemy closest to you and re-target the enemy you were on. Really nice against Ranged/melee teams where you're pressuring the ranged team, or against lock teams where the lock sticks his pet on you for extra damage. Keep conc shot on it, and wingclip it if it gets too close. He'll lose a lot of damage if you kite it for most of the game.
I might get a lot of crap for this, but from what I've seen, a lot of PVPers screw up when they try to kite by strafing.

Let me ask you this: If someone is coming at you and you want to get away, should you move sideways, or backwards? Exactly, you want to backpeddle. The 'S' key is your friend, hunters.

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