Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

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10/27/2011 07:36 PMPosted by Thorä
Once Deathwing falls...what do you think is going to happen if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the only remains of the peace that Thrall made with Jaina so long ago? All of those great powers that usually are focused on more important matters...are going to turn their eyes and wrath upon the zealous Garrosh and Sylvannas. Thrall will likely kill Garrosh over it after having already lost his close friend, Cairne, to Garrosh's bloodlust and foolishness. As not only would Garrosh have made a personal attack on his close friend, but he would blatantly bring war to all that Thrall helped build to give his people a home.


I hope Thrall crushes is FACE. lol

Again, its a set up for the story, people.


The problem is that it's the set up for a bad story. The more momentum they impart the Horde the less realistic it's going to be when they get stopped, and they will get stopped. If they do something really stupid, like letting internal friction between Horde leaders be what stops it, then the Alliance is permanently emasculated. If the Alliance gets its !@#$ together and turns the tables on the Horde militarily, then you wind up with an Alliance juggernaut that looks even more unstoppable than the Horde does now, and Blizzard needs to come up with something even more idiotic to save the Horde. Because we all KNOW that no is going to decisively win this conflict, so it's stupid to push the stakes that high.
To all of the complaints regarding the Horde getting to ALWAYS make the first move, I would like to point out that the faction has two extremely zealous leaders, Garrosh Hellscream and Sylvannas Windrunner.

These two alone, while not sharing an equal vision, are the two likely ones to mobilize forces and march on the war path before anyone else.

For everyone complaining about the issue of the Horde never losing, you are failing to remember that the Alliance leaders, with the exception of Varian, are not zealous at all, nor do they have same bloodlust of most Horde races to avenge their brothers. They choose to preserve, and focus on what is important such as The Burning Legion, The Lich King, or Deathwing.

What our kind Dev was trying to explain is that the Alliance never really retaliates because they don't have the time or care to focus on such things when faced with a more pressing matter. Which is little better than the story of Leyara and her hatred for Malfurion because he did not attack the Orcs when they invaded Ashenvale. When Malfurion was attending to more important matters like the Emerald Dream, Teldrassil, and Nordrassil which a greater fate in his hands.

Once Deathwing falls...what do you think is going to happen if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the only remains of the peace that Thrall made with Jaina so long ago? All of those great powers that usually are focused on more important matters...are going to turn their eyes and wrath upon the zealous Garrosh and Sylvannas. Thrall will likely kill Garrosh over it after having already lost his close friend, Cairne, to Garrosh's bloodlust and foolishness. As not only would Garrosh have made a personal attack on his close friend, but he would blatantly bring war to all that Thrall helped build to give his people a home.


How Blizzard wants to tell their story is not the issue here. You're welcome to go back through pages, but I'm about all out of the will to explain it anymore.
Funny how Muarim put it down. Also, why are you still on the whole "theramore is story set up" thing? You didn't read the thread at all, did you? We are complaining about, and let me be clear:

POOR ALLIANCE STORYTELLING

God, I hate having to use caps.
Theramore is a set up? Yes, we know that! We also know it's a crappy one since we have plenty of reasons to attack the horde already. It's not the first move, it's the 15th, all made by the horde.

We complain about poor alliance storytelling, and how blizz favors horde side instead... and you come and say how destorying theramore will further HORDE leaders story. See the Irony in that? Almost all of the few pieces of lore on our leaders are on books. Horde gets the story in the game. Even our cataclysm storylines have been abandoned without mention to ever beeing completed. God, YOU saw the conclusion to the storyline of OUR new race - we got nothing. Hell, why is it that there is a BG again? Please tell me, as to the alliance the game doesn't.

And why we know Calia will never be brought up? Can you do it without her being killed of or ending in the throne room waiting for the NEVER to happen retake of her kingdom, like Genn? Blizz didn't set up a story like that to happen. It's a MMORPG, we will not retake gilneas for it would mean ending the BG, and we will not retake undercity for it would mean destroying good part of the forsaken lore and creating a whole new starting leveling experience for them.

So yeah, not gonna happen.
So, at BlizzCon we provided a few details about a new expansion and how it's going to have an ever-growing focus on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance in the wake of dispelling many very powerful threats to all of Azeroth. Then we find out a vague detail that some sort of unrelenting attack by the Horde on Theramore is to come. The Horde, to remind you, is currently a faction with an overzealous ruler and significant turmoil among their faction leaders; while the Alliance has almost never been quite so unified and far removed from the days of imprisoning orcs.

The first pawn on the chess board of what is to be the story for Mists of Pandaria is being moved, and you're angry at whose turn is first? I only offer that maybe there's a little more to the Horde and Alliance story lines in Mists than an Alliance town being leveled... like the entire expansion story you don't know about yet. ;)

If you wanna make an omelette...


Yeah it's not like you guys gave them the best pvp racials for years, tweaked BGs to favor the horde (and still in a couple of cases DO) have some sort of bromance going on with Thrall who gets a pass on Ashenvale because it's Hellscream actually there- oh yes, and astranaar... horde base within spitting distance. Yah gee, I see your point!


The problem is that it's the set up for a bad story. The more momentum they impart the Horde the less realistic it's going to be when they get stopped, and they will get stopped. If they do something really stupid, like letting internal friction between Horde leaders be what stops it, then the Alliance is permanently emasculated. If the Alliance gets its !@#$ together and turns the tables on the Horde militarily, then you wind up with an Alliance juggernaut that looks even more unstoppable than the Horde does now, and Blizzard needs to come up with something even more idiotic to save the Horde. Because we all KNOW that no is going to decisively win this conflict, so it's stupid to push the stakes that high.


While most people would agree with this, you're forgetting that the Alliance CAN NOT strike back at all. Not on Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, anyways.

Blizzard is not going to go back and update any 1-60 zones that they just spent a year or two developing. It's unrealistic to expect them to do that with MoP or to continually update those zones to reflect Alliance and Horde battling. Not to mention that a lot of the Alliance getting annihilated with no story on the Alliance side what so ever explaining anything that happened is because Blizzard wanted to redistribute the leveling zones to even out the leveling paths. (No, I have no idea how that explains Theramore, which is a big part of the anger in this thread, though some Horde posters will tell you it's because the Horde doesn't have an "extra city.")

That said, the Alliance can only strike back on Pandaria or other equally irrelevant places like the Emerald Dream, Outlands 2.0, Northrend 2.0 or some other planet/island/dimension that will cease to even matter once the following expansion is released.

THEN, we take into consideration that even if assuming the Alliance starts destroying the Horde in those places, you're correct in that Blizzard will have to turn the tide eventually to where the Horde is back to winning ALL THE WHILE the Horde still have annihilated the Alliance in the only place that matters which is mainland Azeroth. So the Alliance CAN NOT strike back in any meaningful and will always be perceived to be losing even if we won every battle for three expansions in a row on far away lands.

This whole "putting back the war in Warcraft" thing is set for fail from multiple angles, including the ones you listed. Nevermind how it's already led off by EXTREMELY convenient plot devices, (Saurfang staying in Northrend, Thrall going neutral, Jaina... I don't know but she's in the same boat as all Alliance leaders in Cata in that she may as well not exist and some IWIN button that explains every Horde victory), characters making illogical decisions and ANGRY CHARACTERS RAAAAAR.


The problem is that it's the set up for a bad story. The more momentum they impart the Horde the less realistic it's going to be when they get stopped, and they will get stopped. If they do something really stupid, like letting internal friction between Horde leaders be what stops it, then the Alliance is permanently emasculated. If the Alliance gets its !@#$ together and turns the tables on the Horde militarily, then you wind up with an Alliance juggernaut that looks even more unstoppable than the Horde does now, and Blizzard needs to come up with something even more idiotic to save the Horde. Because we all KNOW that no is going to decisively win this conflict, so it's stupid to push the stakes that high.


While most people would agree with this, you're forgetting that the Alliance CAN NOT strike back at all. Not on Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, anyways.

Blizzard is not going to go back and update any 1-60 zones that they just spent a year or two developing. It's unrealistic to expect them to do that with MoP or to continually update those zones to reflect Alliance and Horde battling. Not to mention that a lot of the Alliance getting annihilated with no story on the Alliance side what so ever explaining anything that happened is because Blizzard wanted to redistribute the leveling zones to even out the leveling paths. (No, I have no idea how that explains Theramore, which is a big part of the anger in this thread, though some Horde posters will tell you it's because the Horde doesn't have an "extra city.")

That said, the Alliance can only strike back on Pandaria or other equally irrelevant places like the Emerald Dream, Outlands 2.0, Northrend 2.0 or some other planet/island/dimension that will cease to even matter once the following expansion is released.

THEN, we take into consideration that even if assuming the Alliance starts destroying the Horde in those places, you're correct in that Blizzard will have to turn the tide eventually to where the Horde is back to winning ALL THE WHILE the Horde still have annihilated the Alliance in the only place that matters which is mainland Azeroth. So the Alliance CAN NOT strike back in any meaningful and will always be perceived to be losing even if we won every battle for three expansions in a row on far away lands.


Now, I don't know about that. There's a number of zones that are remarkably bare of questing and objectives, the most obvious being Arathi Highlands.

I could see them taking that zone and updating it. It wouldn't be as hard or complicated as redoing an entire continent or two.

If they redid a few zones to reflect the retaliation for the Horde's offensive, and do it RIGHT, it could go a long way toward giving the Alliance a reason to be proud.

Also, the Q&A had a few interesting questions and answers. Someone asked if we were going to be seeing more from old NPCs now that the Horde vs Alliance story was kicking back in. The answer was an unequivocal 'yes'. And considering most of the NPCs that are out chilling and being Neutral are former Alliance heroes...
10/27/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Caikao
You guys really don't take it, don't ya? Horde is more important than Alliance lore-wise. And the gameplay, if you pay attention to the details, favors more Alliance than Horde. This can get more obvious on PvP. In fact, the Horde should have crushed Alliance now, if lore was the main source. They just try to maintain things almost equal for gameplay factors.

LOL OMG, Thankyou I have not laughed that hard for a long long time. Lore wise the alliance should have crushed the horde the second they got out of line.
You guys really don't take it, don't ya? Horde is more important than Alliance lore-wise. And the gameplay, if you pay attention to the details, favors more Alliance than Horde. This can get more obvious on PvP. In fact, the Horde should have crushed Alliance now, if lore was the main source. They just try to maintain things almost equal for gameplay factors.

LOL OMG, Thankyou I have not laughed that hard for a long long time. Lore wise the alliance should have crushed the horde the second they got out of line.


Like they have every time they actually banded together and really tried to fight back. I mean come one, before the horrible retcon it took the entire Horde years upon years to take down ONE single Alliance city and they only accomplished that through assassination. Stormwind forever!
10/27/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Amurru
You guys really don't take it, don't ya? Horde is more important than Alliance lore-wise. And the gameplay, if you pay attention to the details, favors more Alliance than Horde. This can get more obvious on PvP. In fact, the Horde should have crushed Alliance now, if lore was the main source. They just try to maintain things almost equal for gameplay factors.

LOL OMG, Thankyou I have not laughed that hard for a long long time. Lore wise the alliance should have crushed the horde the second they got out of line.


Again, I can't argue that point. The lore established is that the Alliance outnumbers the Horde to an almost embarrassing degree.

People, please. If you're going to make a statement, do enough research to back it up. Otherwise, you get called out on it and look silly.



While most people would agree with this, you're forgetting that the Alliance CAN NOT strike back at all. Not on Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, anyways.

Blizzard is not going to go back and update any 1-60 zones that they just spent a year or two developing. It's unrealistic to expect them to do that with MoP or to continually update those zones to reflect Alliance and Horde battling. Not to mention that a lot of the Alliance getting annihilated with no story on the Alliance side what so ever explaining anything that happened is because Blizzard wanted to redistribute the leveling zones to even out the leveling paths. (No, I have no idea how that explains Theramore, which is a big part of the anger in this thread, though some Horde posters will tell you it's because the Horde doesn't have an "extra city.")

That said, the Alliance can only strike back on Pandaria or other equally irrelevant places like the Emerald Dream, Outlands 2.0, Northrend 2.0 or some other planet/island/dimension that will cease to even matter once the following expansion is released.

THEN, we take into consideration that even if assuming the Alliance starts destroying the Horde in those places, you're correct in that Blizzard will have to turn the tide eventually to where the Horde is back to winning ALL THE WHILE the Horde still have annihilated the Alliance in the only place that matters which is mainland Azeroth. So the Alliance CAN NOT strike back in any meaningful and will always be perceived to be losing even if we won every battle for three expansions in a row on far away lands.


Now, I don't know about that. There's a number of zones that are remarkably bare of questing and objectives, the most obvious being Arathi Highlands.

I could see them taking that zone and updating it. It wouldn't be as hard or complicated as redoing an entire continent or two.

If they redid a few zones to reflect the retaliation for the Horde's offensive, and do it RIGHT, it could go a long way toward giving the Alliance a reason to be proud.

Also, the Q&A had a few interesting questions and answers. Someone asked if we were going to be seeing more from old NPCs now that the Horde vs Alliance story was kicking back in. The answer was an unequivocal 'yes'. And considering most of the NPCs that are out chilling and being Neutral are former Alliance heroes...


Stromgarde isn't an attack against the Horde and there's still a brand new Forsaken camp in the area. Plus, we find out that the leader of Stromgarde was killed and turned into Forsaken. I doubt we're going to take Stromgarde that easily. Hell, even if we do we'll probably be barely holding onto it with Horde quests sending you to go kill NPCs around the revamped Stromgarde.

However, we will probably take Stonard. (For real this time) I wouldn't even count that as a victory, just finally properly ending an unfinished quest line.

Edit: I also doubt we'll be seeing any neutral heroes returning either. That's only something the Horde gets, apparently. Literally the day it was announced Thrall was going neutral, Metzen made sure the Horde knew Thrall was coming back.

Khadgar is probably going to stay chilling in Shattrath with the rest of the neutral Draenei and his homeland of Dalaran will probably be neutral forever because it'll always be needed as the primary city of Northrend even when Northrend's cataclysm rolls around. It'll save them development time. A lot of people consider Tirion as an Alliance hero gone neutral, but he's definitely not and never will go back. Since his inception into Warcraft, he was built to be a neutral character, which is also why I get ticked off when Horde claim that the Argent Crusade is all about the Alliance.



While most people would agree with this, you're forgetting that the Alliance CAN NOT strike back at all. Not on Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, anyways.

Blizzard is not going to go back and update any 1-60 zones that they just spent a year or two developing. It's unrealistic to expect them to do that with MoP or to continually update those zones to reflect Alliance and Horde battling. Not to mention that a lot of the Alliance getting annihilated with no story on the Alliance side what so ever explaining anything that happened is because Blizzard wanted to redistribute the leveling zones to even out the leveling paths. (No, I have no idea how that explains Theramore, which is a big part of the anger in this thread, though some Horde posters will tell you it's because the Horde doesn't have an "extra city.")

That said, the Alliance can only strike back on Pandaria or other equally irrelevant places like the Emerald Dream, Outlands 2.0, Northrend 2.0 or some other planet/island/dimension that will cease to even matter once the following expansion is released.

THEN, we take into consideration that even if assuming the Alliance starts destroying the Horde in those places, you're correct in that Blizzard will have to turn the tide eventually to where the Horde is back to winning ALL THE WHILE the Horde still have annihilated the Alliance in the only place that matters which is mainland Azeroth. So the Alliance CAN NOT strike back in any meaningful and will always be perceived to be losing even if we won every battle for three expansions in a row on far away lands.


Now, I don't know about that. There's a number of zones that are remarkably bare of questing and objectives, the most obvious being Arathi Highlands.

I could see them taking that zone and updating it. It wouldn't be as hard or complicated as redoing an entire continent or two.

If they redid a few zones to reflect the retaliation for the Horde's offensive, and do it RIGHT, it could go a long way toward giving the Alliance a reason to be proud.

Also, the Q&A had a few interesting questions and answers. Someone asked if we were going to be seeing more from old NPCs now that the Horde vs Alliance story was kicking back in. The answer was an unequivocal 'yes'. And considering most of the NPCs that are out chilling and being Neutral are former Alliance heroes...

They won't give the alliance back any of the neutral or super lore rich heroes such as turalyon, khadgar, or alleria. They should but those heroes will remain neutral which is an absolute cop out.

Edit: I can understand Khadgar as a mage being neutral. He's aligned to such a nature. But alleria and Turalyon hate the orcs.
10/27/2011 08:16 PMPosted by Baneclaw
Everything is going to be OK, we get Swamp of Sorrows. From this lush paradise, we shall launch the greatest offensive ever seen to crush the Horde all across the continent.


Until horde gets a small encampment and a quest chain to burn it to the ground. Then a redirect to Blasted Lands (don't even get me started on that)...

And yet Horde pick 95% of the fights and have destoryed about a 1000 times more alliance things than alliance has of horde since the beginning of Warcraft... Horde claims to be noble and yet idolizes the heroes of the "old" Horde... Sorry but the Horde has never changed and are still evil but without the excuse of demonic corruption... Thrall was the only thing that gave their change of heart some kind of credibility but he left... The alliance doesn't really need anymore motivation to outright bulldoze the lot of them...


84.35% of statistics are made up on the spot.
They won't give the alliance back any of the neutral or super lore rich heroes such as turalyon, khadgar, or alleria. They should but those heroes will remain neutral which is an absolute cop out.

Edit: I can understand Khadgar as a mage being neutral. He's aligned to such a nature. But alleria and Turalyon hate the orcs.


Where does it say that Alleria and Turalyon would be neutral? I'm pretty sure that Kurdran and Danath are both very much Alliance characters. Khadgar's neutrality is totally reasonable, Alleria wanted to see every orc dead. I'm pretty sure getting stranded on floating rocks in the middle of the Twisting Nether because of an orc's actions did not soften her stance on killing them.
They won't give the alliance back any of the neutral or super lore rich heroes such as turalyon, khadgar, or alleria. They should but those heroes will remain neutral which is an absolute cop out.

Edit: I can understand Khadgar as a mage being neutral. He's aligned to such a nature. But alleria and Turalyon hate the orcs.


Where does it say that Alleria and Turalyon would be neutral? I'm pretty sure that Kurdran and Danath are both very much Alliance characters. Khadgar's neutrality is totally reasonable, Alleria wanted to see every orc dead. I'm pretty sure getting stranded on floating rocks in the middle of the Twisting Nether because of an orc's actions did not soften her stance on killing them.


It didn't say that anywhere, but it's a hunch a lot of players have considering Blizzard's past with making every Alliance hero neutral so the Horde can experience their story and copy/pasting anything that was ever unique about the Alliance over to the Horde for game balance.

I mean... whenever we get to Outland's revamp, we're inevitably going to run into Alleria and Turalyon after we go through one of those portals that never made it into BC. They're probably going to play a big part and there isn't much left of oldschool Horde characters in Outland anymore. They'll likely be directing all heroes towards the big bad of the expansion.
Well...in the one BG where alliance are the bad guys, we've crippled a major lore character.

Like literally. Drek'thar is in a wheelchair.
The day Alleria and Turalyon become neutral is the day blizz pisses on the face of every Warcraft 2 player out there. There is no conceivable reason they should do that, considering they sacrificed their lives in Azeroth in order to take the fight to draenor and seal the dark portal...

And yet I can clearly see Blizz doing it, so the Horde can see their story too.

Dammit blizz.
The day Alleria and Turalyon become neutral is the day blizz pisses on the face of every Warcraft 2 player out there. There is no conceivable reason they should do that, considering they sacrificed their lives in Azeroth in order to take the fight to draenor and seal the dark portal...

And yet I can clearly see Blizz doing it, so the Horde can see their story too.

Dammit blizz.


Well, to be fair, Warcraft 2 players probably make up, what, like 2% of WoW's audience? Not to mention, they pretty much retconned Warcraft I and II in their entirety save for the general story arc when they released those novels for WoW players. Including the part where they retconned Doomhammer into killing Lothar in a "fair duel."

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