Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

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10/28/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
The sword thing I will give you only if you are willing to accept Alliance won in ICC and it was former Alliance heroes that helped seal that victory including Uther revealing the Truth about Lich King or Terenas Mass Rezzing everyone.

Arthas is as Alliance as Sylvanas is or as Alliance as Fel Orcs are Horde. Similarly, Terenas was never even part of the Alliance in the first place.

Human =/= Alliance.
if anything killing arthas was a forsaken victory anyways. ever since the lich king became a player in the world, the forsaken as a people have claimed to hear his voice and have to break away from his control, whereas after bolvar took over the voice has "lessened". and then his valkyr faction get transfered to sylvanas.
10/28/2011 02:28 PMPosted by Fayiana
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\

Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)

I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.

I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.

Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.

Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.

Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.

This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\

Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)

I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.

I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.

Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.

Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.

Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.

This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.


My first first......


Its also important to note that all not alliance feel this way Zar. I personally have enjoyed being the underdog this expansion and seeing the horde shine a little. Plus I know a lot of the concessions were made for questing balance. I also see that Alliance do have some victories. They push the Horde back out of Ashenvale and I'm pretty sure they kick some major butt in Feralas....but I digress...Thank you for keeping up with this and the hard work you guys are doing. I can't wait for mists.
Man, Zarhym, it's not about tit for tat every single patch.

It's just that we on the Alliance side haven't had a "tit for tat" since really mid-Wrath at the latest, and when BlizzCon weekend suggested the Devs (Kosak at the least) openly admitted they neglected the Alliance a bit, we were hoping for something a little more triumphant than "Your most iconic remaining city gets burned down by the Horde" as our first lore leak.

I know you got more stuff planned, it's just discouraging.

That said, enjoy your weekend. You deserve it. :)
Man, Zarhym, it's not about tit for tat every single patch.

It's just that we on the Alliance side haven't had a "tit for tat" since really mid-Wrath at the latest, and when BlizzCon weekend suggested the Devs (Kosak at the least) openly admitted they neglected the Alliance a bit, we were hoping for something a little more triumphant than "Your most iconic remaining city gets burned down by the Horde" as our first lore leak.

I know you got more stuff planned, it's just discouraging.

That said, enjoy your weekend. You deserve it. :)


Dawn is coming.....and Varian is leading the charge.
10/28/2011 04:59 PMPosted by Zarhym
It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.


That was an awesome analogy :) Now grab yourself an ice cold (or piping hot?) refreshing beverage and have yourself a fun weekend.
If Theramore gets destroyed, will there be another questing hub for the Alliance? If not, will the Dustwallow questing achievement be removed?
I've not really understood the outcry over Theramore getting dusted but I can't imagine anyone not understanding how story lines progress and that every story has to start somewhere.

It is the opening move on the chessboard of Azeroth.
I've not really understood the outcry over Theramore getting dusted but I can't imagine anyone not understanding how story lines progress and that every story has to start somewhere.

It is the opening move on the chessboard of Azeroth.


Again. That's not the issue. If this was the opening move I would have ZERO issues with it.

The problem is, this game has gone on for almost 7 years. There have been hundreds of moves.

And the vast, vast, VAST majority of moves have been made by the Horde.
10/28/2011 04:59 PMPosted by Zarhym
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\

Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)

I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.

I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.

Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.

Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.

Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.

This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.


I’m getting the feeling that you don’t understand the importance of certain aspects of the medium of the narrative you’re trying to craft. The reason why the 1-60 leveling zones is more important than MoP content in terms of story progression is because it’s the hook. Particularly in early zones, what you present to the players will shape their perception of their toon for the remainder of the time they play the game. There’s a serious discrepancy here.

Take, for example, the first non starting zone of the Forsaken experience. In Silverpine, you invade Gilneas, go toe to toe with the best soldiers the other faction has to offer, beat the strongest society of mages in the world in their own pocket dimension, and watch your racial leader overcome death itself. You go into Hillsbrad feeling powerful, like a hero.

Now, contrast this with the Human equivalent zone. In Westfall, you watch a town the Alliance has been trying to build for 5 years get burned down by a pack of homeless people, and then you get told there’s nothing more you can do here. You get sent to Redridge having experienced a good story, but you feel demoralized and powerless.

Contrast the Goblin and Worgen experiences. Goblins go to Azshara, a zone built to exalt the unending majesty of the Horde and the Goblin race. You’re part of a race that can move mountains, and shape the earth itself for no other reason than to show their gratitude. The Worgens get shuttled off to Darkshore, where they watch how their faction has been reduced to refugees and disaster victims.

The problem is that this discrepancy will exist until the next time you decide to overhaul the starting zones. Every single new player who levels through Westfall and Darkshore will feel exactly the way that zone is designed to make them feel. Like a victim, like someone who’s at the mercy of others. It’s not a good way to maintain someone’s interest in an immersive medium.

Exacerbating the problem is that everyone knows how the Horde/Alliance arc is going to end. Something will keep the Horde from wiping out the Alliance. That’s a fact. If it turns out to be the return of Thrall, or Vol’jin growing a pair and knocking off Garrosh, then the Alliance is permanently emasculated as an interesting faction. They’ll be the Washington Generals of warcraft until the end of the game. If the Alliance manages to turn things around on their own, then they’ll seem even more unstoppable than the Horde does now. But we know the Horde won’t be wiped out. This isn’t WCII. People won’t play a faction that just sits in an internment camp all day. So, something needs to stop the Alliance at that point. You wind up in a recursive pattern of Deus Ex Machinas that are not interesting at all because you’re stuck trying to tell a grand narrative that’s locked into a stalemate ending.
Why does this even matter?? Who cares if one side gets to destroy something and the other doesnt (or hasn't been announced yet)?

Why are you even discussing this when it hasn't even happened yet? You can't claim favoritism without having the FULL story and even then, so what? I play both Horde and Alliance. If it makes good story, then it makes good story. Tit for tat isn't necessary and would honestly be kind of lame.

Btw, you all talk about "fueling the fires", but isn't that the point?
10/28/2011 04:59 PMPosted by Zarhym
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\

Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)

I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.

I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.

Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.

Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.

Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.

This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.


I'm really sorry that you have to spell it out for everyone... it sort of takes the imagination and suspense out of it... I can't wait to see what you have in store for us! This seems like a very exciting time to be a Warcraft player!






This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.


Poor analogy. This is more like hearing about the assault on Helm's Deep, about how it's humanity's darkest hour, and how it's going to advance the plot, when you know Aragorn's going to sue for peace with Sauron. The reason why the stakes in Lord of the Rings got so high was because someone was going to be destroyed. It could have been the mortals of middle earth, it turned out it was Sauron, but without that finality in the ending, the whole story collapses. And we're gaurunteed not to get a satisfied ending to this story.

It's more like a comedian telling a story with a 20 minutes set up, and a punchline from a two minute joke. Timing is important, and you've already missed the proper moment, and you're still riding the train off into the land of hackneyed scripts.

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