Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

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I personally don't like Garrosh as leader of the Horde, Thrall was way more diplomatic about everything. my personal opinion, Garrosh actually did consume demon blood and is having trouble controlling the blood rage that corrupted the orcs.
Guys why do you all care so much about an alliance city sitting knee deep in a horde territory, frankly it makes sense that the horde would attack it, which is a great way to progress the story line.

I went to theramore the other day and couldn't help but feel alone, as in no one was there at all, and i also thought about why this place was so big compared to the horde teleport that wasn't a main city, seems a little unfair if you ask me (if you see how silly that statement is then surely you should see how irrelevant theramore's destruction is).

I personally look forward to seeing what Varians gonna do to top this.

Guys why do you all care so much about an alliance city sitting knee deep in a horde territory, frankly it makes sense that the horde would attack it, which is a great way to progress the story line.

I went to theramore the other day and couldn't help but feel alone, as in no one was there at all, and i also thought about why this place was so big compared to the horde teleport that wasn't a main city, seems a little unfair if you ask me (if you see how silly that statement is then surely you should see how irrelevant theramore's destruction is).

I personally look forward to seeing what Varians gonna do to top this.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=229#4575

Because Theramore is the last remaining storyline left from 1-60 which depicts the Alliance winning at anything.

Oh and guys, do you want to know the real reason why Theramore is being blown up?

I was leveling my little warrior gnome, and I noticed something. When you get to your late 30s, you have a choice - Theramore or Andorhal.

It seems to me that Blizzard is FORCING alliance players to "experience their loss at Andorhal" by removing the leveling area in Theramore. Once Theramore is removed, only WPL and Andorhal remains for that level gap.

So, basically this really is a massive salt lick being shoved down our throats. No matter what the alliance completely and utterly loses at the game between levels 30 and levels 42.

Then there is 0 alliance story until Feathermoon. Then the alliance story comes to an abrupt halt until Honor hold at level 58/60.

So let me break this down for you:

Alliance questing:

* You begin the game losing all of your quests if you are Human, Worgen,

* Gnome and Dwarfs don't lose until they try to retake Gnomer.

* You then LOSE in Westfall and Darkshore.

* You then experience massive loss in Redridge. People don't normally notice this because they think "OMG I am questing with Rambo!" But almost every quest in that zone is loss. When you finish it, you think Rambo dies, but then he comes back with very little explanation.

* You do "ok in Duskwood".

* You begin the game losing in Ashenvale, until you fight the horde back to a stand still.

* You then LOSE massively in Stone Talon, with only a few "retreat and survive" quest scenarios.

* You then lose in Barrens.

* You don't realize this while questing in Arathi, but you actually come in after a couple of major alliance characters from Stromgarde LOST and were turned into Forsaken. This is completely asinine. I had to look up the characters on the wowwiki site to find out that they were killed and raised. So basically you lose, but you're not even told about it.

* Wetlands, Arathi and Hinterlands isn't a loss, but they are both sooo separated from the main storyline you have to wonder what's going on.

* When you are late 38s you have a choice Go to WPL and LOSE or go to Theramore and completely ignore the alliance vs horde storyline.

* After Hinterlands (which I already mentioned) and Desolace (which again, has no Alliance vs Horde storyline), you can go to Feralas which again has No Alliance vs Horde storyline there.

* Then you have nothing for the Alliance at all. The remaining questing is all based on Neutral quests.

* Then you wind up in Honor Hold. Nobody wins/loses throughout TBC, mostly because half of the quests are chosen via alliance with Scryers (Reformed Blood Elves) or Aldor (elevator of death).

* Then you wind up going to northrend and you have a choice - Howling Fjord, where the alliance loses, or Borean Tundra where there's 0 Alliance vs Horde storyline.

Every single time you are facing a storyline where it's Alliance vs Horde, the Alliance loses, or "barely survives". Every single time. The only victories in this questing scheme are when you are fighting an NPC, even that's starting to change in Westfall where the alliance is LOSING against an NPC with sentinel hill burning for all eternity. It was acceptable in Westgarde Keep, because the full might of Naxx was bearing down on the humans, and it directly lead to a raid where you fight back KT! That's ok. Sentinel Hill was a slap in the face.


Blizzard seems no longer happy with giving us a choice, they now want us to experience losing a war throughout 80% of our questing; and I am tired of being FORCED to lose. I was one of the few DKs on my server who could take a 46k pyroblast to my face when I was level 80 and laugh it off, yet for some reason my questing is "perpetual loss". I'm practically a god when I tank after my healer dies, and yet for some reason my questing is "perpetual loss".

I am tired. I'm not angry, I'm tired. Tired people stop playing. Alliance is becoming tired as well. I know people in my guild are tired.

Why even try anymore if all of our quest lines regarding the horde are "you lose, or barely survive but run away, or you survive and are preparing to run away"?


Destroying Theramore is really the worst business decision that Blizzard can make at this point.
You guys really need to let this play out.. Something is going to entice Garrosh. Perhaps the Alliance will dish out the first punch, maybe, maybe not. I don't know because I don't know all the behind the scene facts yet and NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU. Quit jumping the gun and being impatient, let this build up. It feels like some of you are just looking for ANYTHING to cry about without knowing ALL the facts.
11/03/2011 10:43 PMPosted by Qarve
You guys really need to let this play out.. Something is going to entice Garrosh. Perhaps the Alliance will dish out the first punch, maybe, maybe not. I don't know because I don't know all the behind the scene facts yet and NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU. Quit jumping the gun and being impatient, let this build up. It feels like some of you are just looking for ANYTHING to cry about without knowing ALL the facts.


The main point people are bringing up isn't that Theramore is being destroyed it's that Theramore is being destroyed and there will be very little Alliance side lore based off it.

People are making that assumption based off previous story writing decisions Blizzarrd has made. All in all a fair assumption.
11/03/2011 10:43 PMPosted by Qarve
You guys really need to let this play out.. Something is going to entice Garrosh. Perhaps the Alliance will dish out the first punch, maybe, maybe not. I don't know because I don't know all the behind the scene facts yet and NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU. Quit jumping the gun and being impatient, let this build up. It feels like some of you are just looking for ANYTHING to cry about without knowing ALL the facts.


We let LK "Play Out".

We let Cata "Play Out".

Moments after Blizzard apologizes for the mistreatment given to Alliance, they announce this, play the corpse grinder video and laugh.

There is 0 indication that letting this Play Out will even remotely end up as anything other than the Alliance putting on a moth suit and screaming "notintheface!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlHloVZ8C2E

Past behavior is indicative of future performance.
11/03/2011 10:48 PMPosted by Elineé
You guys really need to let this play out.. Something is going to entice Garrosh. Perhaps the Alliance will dish out the first punch, maybe, maybe not. I don't know because I don't know all the behind the scene facts yet and NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU. Quit jumping the gun and being impatient, let this build up. It feels like some of you are just looking for ANYTHING to cry about without knowing ALL the facts.


We let LK "Play Out".

We let Cata "Play Out".

Moments after Blizzard apologizes for the mistreatment given to Alliance, they announce this, play the corpse grinder video and laugh.

There is 0 indication that letting this Play Out will even remotely end up as anything other than the Alliance putting on a moth suit and screaming "notintheface!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlHloVZ8C2E

Past behavior is indicative of future performance.
This.
So do tell how long we're supposed to wait for the story to advance.

I've written several major analyses of the internal Alliance story arcs and how they're going nowhere. I doubt you'll read any of them so I'll summarize.

Onyxia and the Defias were the launch storylines for the Humans over 7 years ago. The entire Onyxia story got retconned and done via a comic book and there was no follow up. There's been no replacement story arc since. In BC Humans got nothing but cameos by WC2 characters who never did anything. There was no action in WOTLK that was not a direct reaction to the Arthas storyline. What little reaction there was reduced Varian to simply being a hothead that smoldered with generic rage and reduced Jaina to being an emotional girl that was defined by her ex-boyfriend.

Dwarves are the only alliance race that has achieved any significant success with their Titan origins. They had a good setup with the Council of Three Hammers in CATA but did anything important ever come of that....no.

Gnomes, most of the Alliance have no idea who Gelbin Mekkatorque. Unlike the trolls they didn't get their home back in WOTLK. No story progression at all for them.

Night Elves, have accomplished absolutely nothing in 7 years other than having characters go evil or neutral at a steady clip. Tyrande has been almost totally unused up to this point.

Draenei have done nothing since the BC xpac. Most Alliance players barely know who Velen is.

Worgen got a great starting zone in CATA but then fall off the face of the earth once they take the boat to Darnassus.

This is all in comparison to the development that the Forsaken and Slyvanas are getting. They developed their plague in vanilla, Slyvanas had a defining character moment in BC, and then she went to have a major co-starring role in WOTLK where unlike Jaina she didn't look like a fool. The Wrathgate event had been building since vanilla and the resulting coup attempt had major reprecussions leading into CATA. Forsaken get a 3 zone long ride with the Forsaken war machine in which Slyvanas and Garrosh have defining interactions and Slyvanas gets a major almost religious epiphany at the Greymane Wall after horde players get the second half of the Worgen story arc which Alliance players can't even experience.

Thrall and Garrosh's characterization goes all the way back to Vanilla. Garrosh gets recruited by Thrall in Nagrand. Players get to see him meet his grandmother and learn his true name. His journey to becoming the World Shaman starts there. In WOTLK there's the major sub-plot of the increasing militancy of the Horde which goes on INDEPENDENT of the rest of the WOTLK storyline and by the end of WOTLK the leadership of the Horde is in turmoil going into CATA with major parts being played by Garrosh, Thrall and Vol'jin ALL OF WHICH IS HAPPENING INDEPENDENT OF THE DEATHWING STORYLINE. Oh and like I said the Trolls score a major victory and create a new sub-capital...nothing much. Then in CATA there is a four zone long spree in tandem with the Orc Offensive in Kalimdor that also ends in a character defining moment for Garrosh. And of course Thrall, Super Shaman.

I'm sorry...for you to say that the Onyxia event somehow is equivalent to all of THAT... I wish. I got news for you...a lot of us are tired of being told to wait and wait and wait. Alot of us are tired of having our content cut because of time restrictions when apparently the same doesn't hold true for the Horde (IE Goblin district in Org vs the Worgen Tree which apparently came about at the last minute when the SW Worgen District couldn't be done. Or the missing cinematic for the intro to the Twilight Highlands while the Horde's was done). We're tired of veiled mockery at Blizzcon. Now here's the thing. If we decide we're not being entertained and decide to spend our money elsewhere...that's less money for Blizzard which means less resources total devoted to the game which means less stuff for you. So pack up your little troll act, put the blind "For the Horde!" mentality on hold for 5 minutes and recognize that there might just be a problem.


A couple lore points this isn't anything against you case just pointing out some lore errors.

Dwarves, Humans, and Gnomes all found out their origins in Northrend.
Humans are from Valkyur
Dwarves are from Earthen
Gnomes are from Mecha-gnomes (revealed in borean tundra)
Half of the Horde doesn't know who the Blood Elf leader is either
Same with the Goblins (speaking of which where is he anyways)
Baine doesn't do jack either except sit there.
Defias Story is revived with actually a decent story even if it isn't all hunky dory for the alliance but I remember the questline sending you into Deadmines at the end to finish it.

Your complaining about Jaina in WoW when she was exactly the same way in WC3. She can't do anything for herself she has other people do it for her.

Um are you guys forgetting about Anduin in all this. I know he isn't a faction leader, but he is Varian's son and pretty well written if nothing else.

The problem I think goes back to Blizzard's novels. They really want the novels to tell stories and relate them to in game events. They have been screwing over the game for a quite a while due to the stupid novels. Do I need to remind me of Horde got screwed over by the novels just as much as Alliance have. They killed Cairne one of the most beloved Horde character in a duel that only appeared in the novel.

I really do wish Blizzard would do something with Tyrande but at this point it is almost better off killing her off and putting Shandris in her place.
Because we know the rest of the story? I've seen some blues saying the same thing and i think something over on mmo champion of a blue saying that varian is gonna play a large part in this next expansion, and i really don't care for questing or reading any of what is said in those quest logs so i couldn't say anything on that matter.

11/03/2011 10:48 PMPosted by Elineé
We let Cata "Play Out".


While it hasn't all played out yet i do believe it's gonna be more horde story as well as the attack on theramore leading into MoP, you know the saying it gets worse before it gets better? hopefully that applies here.
For the last time why exactly do keep saying Alliance lose Darkshore and Southern Barrens. They don't really lose much of anything other than the nostalgia locations in that zone. You wipe out the whole dancing troll village from Vanilla. You push back the Horde from Darkshore and then continue the push back in Ashenvale.

The Alliance quests at the end of the Barrens take place after the Horde version which is pretty much clear with Bael'modan or whatever that dwarf place is, which i might also remind you the dwarves built by destroying a Tauren village in the first place. In response to the Horde destruction of dwarves base the Alliance counter attack and destroy the Horde mine. The zone ends in a stalemate.

If you want to say Alliance lose in Redridge than the Horde lose in Stonetalon. Horde paid a heavy price for that so called victory. We watched as Krom'gar slaughtered n village of innocent Tauren (horde aligned) who were only trying to stop him from nuking the druids. The horde army there is also disbanded by order of Garrosh after you know the whole cliff kicking thing.

I never understood the whole Galen forsaken thing honestly but I think the Horde killed him way back in vanilla questing.
I've seen some blues saying the same thing


They have been saying that since pre cata. Even a bit in wrath when we found out about the broken front.

Do I need to remind me of Horde got screwed over by the novels just as much as Alliance have. They killed Cairne one of the most beloved Horde character in a duel that only appeared in the novel.


Alliance can top that, we dont even get to see the end of the worgen story, we are force to hear it from the horde players. If that is bad storytelling I dont know what is.
11/03/2011 11:15 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
The Alliance quests at the end of the Barrens take place after the Horde version which is pretty much clear with Bael'modan or whatever that dwarf place is, which i might also remind you the dwarves built by destroying a Tauren village in the first place.
LOL wut? Bael Modan has been there since Vanilla. It serves as the front line post for the Alliance offensive into the Barrens.

The Horde lose an insignificant mine that doesn't even get acknowledged by Horde players. Alliance players, on the other hand, are forced to accept a quest that ends with THEM GETTING BLOWN UP.

Stalemate my !@#.


For reference, this is what the Alliance lose in that zone.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Bael_Modan

This is what the Horde lose
http://www.wowpedia.org/Frazzlecraz_Motherlode
11/03/2011 11:15 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
For the last time why exactly do keep saying Alliance lose Darkshore and Southern Barrens.


Darkshore, not sure, we did pretty well in that zone. The only crippling loss was pulling the bodies of Auberdine NPCs out of wreckage.

But Southern Barrens? We get trashed. HARD

We lose our first General
We have to go arrest our troops because they're looting the village we burned.
We lose another General's Son
We lose Bael Modan
We come back to our base in dissarray, Goblins killing our troops on the Ramparts, and NPCs going "we're screwed man! screwed!"

Now with Theramore blown up, it's pretty obvious that they went right through the Alliance line into Theramore. Hell, they probably used the big !@# bridge we used to get there against us. Feels bad man.
In response to the still ongoing "Wait and see."

I started a thread over a year ago (search 'Concerns about Worgen' if you're curious) regarding the dismal state of the Worgen in the Beta. I was told; "It's not done yet, you're making a big deal out of nothing. Wait and see..."

I've waited, and every issue I highlighted has not been resolved, and is exactly as it was then.

Blizzards track record for the past few years has been 'Horde first, Alliance second. If we have time.'
A couple lore points this isn't anything against you case just pointing out some lore errors.


The thing is, about the Humans and Gnomes, especially the Humans discovering the Titan origins is never really established as a goal. It was a goal for the Dwarves it was something they were doing and I've noted several times this is one of the few places where an Alliance story arc has actually moved forward from Vanilla. For the gnomes though and definitely for the humans I can't recall any emphasis at any point prior to WOTLK where they were actively looking for that knowledge.

The way the human discovery is presented in WOTLK its almost as if it was entirely accidental and it happens about 10 mins off the boat in Howling Fjord, and nobody ever discusses or acknowledges it again. If Blizzard had done something with that plot point I'd be more forgiving of this....If there was a story arc in CATA where say the Horde offensive was shown causing Varian to turn to the Gnomes and use their experience with the Curse of Flesh to start a super soldier program where say 7th Legion volunteers were being "decursed" as part of a super soldier program then that would be a valid plot point. There would be plenty of room for story if all the sudden the Horde found themselves fighting 8ft tall "Vrykulized" Alliance soldiers. As it is the origin stories in WOTLK for the races other than Dwarves are just sort of....things... which don't effect anything else.

I've noted before that the Blood Elves have been underused from a story standpoint. But I still consider them coming out better than the Draenei in that their story arc was largely concluded in the restoration of the Sunwell.

I don't like the recycling of the Defias story, it doesn't stem from anything other than this notion that the Onyxia story, the only Human plot arc to have been resolved, still has the ability to affect the plot. If it had been written better and differently then maybe it would mean something. If Vanessa VanCleef instead going to Sentinel Hill and basically cackling like a witch that she would have vengeance, if instead it was shown that she was organizing the people of Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood into a political movement designed to unseat Varian for the problems that have occurred under his rule then we would have something.

There would have been plenty of room for the writers to connect the movement to the abandonment caused by the Onyxia arc and the discontent over the endless foriegn wars being waged by Stormwind. Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood could have been repurposed so that instead of fighting gnolls and such we could have been skirmishing with the Stormwind Liberation Front at the behest of SI:7 with large question marks as whether their goal to replace Varian with Vanessa was actually evil and whether we as agents of King are actually on the right side. Plenty of opportunity there to have Vanessa force players to have a reflective moment. The scene at Sentinel Hill could have easily been "Gryan, you sent assassins to kill my father without ever asking if his cause was just, will you send more assassins to kill me? Will you learn that an idea cannot be destroyed so easily?"

Jaina's never been that deep but she could do something other than pine for Arthas and act all starry eyed. Your are right that they are obviously planning on doing something with Anduin but so far he does little.

Also you are right that Baine hasn't been heavily used yet, but his ascension to the leadership was a direct result of his father's death. There's even been joking proposals in this thread to exchange Garrosh for Cairne. Cairne may not have been all that active but he definitely managed to create an emotional connection with players. In a larger sense Cairne and Baine are symbolic of the larger problems that the Tauren are having where honor debts and duty are pulling them into a war that they never wanted to fight. The sacrifice of Cairnes character as part of the Thrall/Garrosh turmoil over leadership of the Horde lent an enormous symbolic weight to that story arc.
The Alliance quests at the end of the Barrens take place after the Horde version which is pretty much clear with Bael'modan or whatever that dwarf place is, which i might also remind you the dwarves built by destroying a Tauren village in the first place.
LOL wut? Bael'Modan has been there since Vanilla. It serves as the front line post for the Alliance offensive into the Barrens.

The Horde lose an insignificant mine that doesn't even get acknowledged by Horde players. Alliance players, on the other hand, are forced to accept a quest that ends with THEM GETTING BLOWN UP.

Stalemate my !@#.


You never exactly did the horde barrens back in vanilla did you. We have been trying to destroy that place since then.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Bael_Modan

11/03/2011 10:40 PMPosted by Elineé
Destroying Theramore is really the worst business decision that Blizzard can make at this point.


I'm totally gonna quit because of this bro.
11/03/2011 11:30 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
LOL wut? Bael'Modan has been there since Vanilla. It serves as the front line post for the Alliance offensive into the Barrens.

The Horde lose an insignificant mine that doesn't even get acknowledged by Horde players. Alliance players, on the other hand, are forced to accept a quest that ends with THEM GETTING BLOWN UP.

Stalemate my !@#.


You never exactly did the horde barrens back in vanilla did you. We have been trying to destroy that place since then.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Bael_Modan


I did do the Horde side back in Vanilla. Horde get a lot of quests to kill Alliance friendly NPCs. So?
11/03/2011 10:32 PMPosted by Merathian
I personally don't like Garrosh as leader of the Horde, Thrall was way more diplomatic about everything. my personal opinion, Garrosh actually did consume demon blood and is having trouble controlling the blood rage that corrupted the orcs.


No, he didn't. That's firmly established in lore. Also, he's brown.

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