Item Squishing and Old Raids

General Discussion
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Funny thing about all of this "squishing" talk is that they could do it and you wouldnt even know.

It would be a tweak in the interface similar to how silver_per_gold works.

Instead of seeing the true stat on an item and any other number in the game regarding combat stats, the interface could be altered to show players "larger" numbers, if they need that kind of comfort.

From a programming standpoint, smaller numbers are in fact, better.
11/04/2011 11:03 PMPosted by Maleficent
nerfing talent trees to a single choice every 15 levels will kill this game.


11/04/2011 11:03 PMPosted by Maleficent
a single choice every 15 levels will kill this game.


11/04/2011 11:03 PMPosted by Maleficent
will kill this game.


Nope.
11/05/2011 01:25 AMPosted by Nachtinis
From a programming standpoint, smaller numbers are in fact, better.


From a balancing standpoint it would be easier to work with as well. No wildly fluctuating talents and skills, they should all work roughly the same at all levels. Which would make standard PvP brackets at all levels fun again.
I understand what Daxx has said, about the 'big numbers' being relevant to the numbers around them. But to me, it's also a case of previous numbers. I've enjoyed the increase in damage output, it makes me feel more powerful than I was in the last expansion.

I know it's all about percentages, but part of me will feel nerfed if the squish happens. It's irrational and not based on facts, but I wouldn't be the first to post on the forums neglecting any and all reason, substituting it with how it would 'feel'.

Not saying the stat inflation isn't a problem, but I think both the squish and mega-damage ideas are just too harsh. They should pursue a middle ground, dropping stats a little but not making it such a black and white change.

Plan a long term change rather than hoping to change so many years of increases with one solid drop.
Okay, here's how it's going to work, guys.

The people that say it will become impossible to solo old bosses? You're thinking too small. The gaps aren't actually going to become any smaller; you're thinking in terms of numbers, not percents.

Let's use Ragnaros (Molten Core) as an example. He has 1 million health right now. At a conservative 20k DPS, it takes 100 seconds to down him.

Let's move to MoP, and item levels/stats get squished. Now Ragnaros has, say, 100k HP. You now do 2k DPS. At that, it takes... 100 seconds to down him.

The gap won't be smaller. They'll just have to retune the numbers. Instead of 1 Str giving you a 10 Dam increase, it'll give you 1. Or something like that.


Now if EVERY BOSS AND ENEMY also drops in the same % of damage and health as we do, then it'll be okay.

Boss X (In Cata) has 2M HP and does 40,000 damage on cloth. Boss Y (In Cata) has 1M HP and does 30,000 damage on cloth

In MoP, I'm HOPING it will be: X will have 50,000 HP and does 4,000 damage on cloth, while Y has 25,000 HP and does 3,000 damage on cloth.

If everything isn't equalized just like that, soloing may be near impossible :(


IMO like Ghostcrawler said, they should really wait til Level 95 to do that. Giant Talent Overhaul + iLevel overhaul = brain asploding overhaul.
I realize you know this already but I would be sorely disappointed if I couldn't solo old content anymore. Perhaps if you do this put a raidfinder in for old content, that wouldn't be so bad.
I don't think most people realize why we have big hp. wotlk ilvl 277 most had 25000hp (non plate) lets move back to bc ilvl 154 123ilvl difference people had around 12k hp. Why did health go up so much in cata? They buffed base hp to be 40-50k on an 85. And made stam give 40% more hp per 1 stam.


Health escalated like it did to fix healing & PVP mechanics. Damage & Healing escalated much more quickly then health pools did starting with the 3.0 talent overhaul, which ended up leaving people in the state where they could die or heal a full health bar in 2 globals or less. So the choice was nerf damage and healing or buff health pools. The choice was made for 4.0 that it wasn't the right time to nerf player power level, so health bars were buffed instead. That's why we see the drastic changes to item level that was introduced with Cataclysm, to make everyone's health bar resemble a tug-o-war match versus the ping pong match we watched in Wrath.
Don't worry, Blizz won't continue with the squishing. It's too cumbersome for them.
11/05/2011 02:15 AMPosted by Danoth
Don't worry, Blizz won't continue with the squishing. It's too cumbersome for them.


I tend to agree. It's a good conversation to get started, feeling the players out for down the road. Likely they will need to start planning out now how they will do this for level 95 or even possibly having the giant stat reset at level 100. That gives them plenty of time to work out the details and prep the players for it.
Personally this is something I've been thinking about since BC... When do they become so ludicrous that something needs to be done?

In my opinion sooner rather than later, From the looks of things the idea put to the community by blizzard was to reduce Cataclysm numbers to Burning crusade type numbers in the graph on the EU forums... This would be cool.

Scaling it all down to where the leap between the levels is less colossal will also be a plus for world PvP making everyone deal something that's somewhat valuable (Unlike now where say a 75 can only chip 1%'s off an 82 due to the insane gear jump) and delimit the whole level cap or nothing feel that's been present for quite a while..

For PvP in general the whole high HP pools hasn't changed much really.. Just the same old burst game with crazier numbers.

For PvE it's not gonna change anything other than aesthetics of what's being done.. 25k DPS squished to 2.5k DPS is the same figure so long as the same scaling change is put to the encounters in question.
While the 'squishing' if done properly is an aesthetic change, I'm also a member of the "large numbers" crowd.

While I can understand the confusion some people may run into, the stat gains from xpac to xpac have always increased.

I was looking forward to my DPS scaling up to a whole new level in MoP. While it will still do so, I want to see my huge flashy numbers.

2,500 dps ... no thanks.
25,000 dps ... we do that now.
50,000+ dps, yes please.



Squishing the numbers back down would be a much better solution than mega damage. It would just depend on how Blizzard goes about it. As it is now a lot of the entry level gear to an expansion starts off close in item levels to the final raid or second to final raid of the previous expansion.

Currently Hellfire starts off at item level 81 and Naxx ends at 92. If there was a linear transition from Vanilla content to BC content, you could start the item levels off around 60-65 and change the enemies in the zone to reflect that change. This squish doesn't show a big decrease in power as it's only 15-20 item levels early on.

Another example would be Wrath. I think the beginning item levels started off reasonable at 115 whereas Sunwell gear was 159. I think by the time you hit 75-78 you should be replacing most of your previous expansion's raid gear, which most of us did. It wasn't until 3.2 that item levels got really out of control for the expansion. I've always thought that with TOC giving 245's and being such a small raid that the game would suffer from an item standpoint. I think that if 10 man for a tier had been equal to the 25m of the previous tier then maybe item levels would not have gotten so out of hand.

In Cata, things got way out of hand. Hyjal gear started at 272 whereas the best gear in Wrath was 284. This would have been ok except that entry raid gear gave gear that was a tier better than heroic gear, unlike Wrath where they both started off at 200. I think some of this has to do with the lack of difference between gear of different colors this expansion. Another issue is the 5 levels. When you had 10 levels it was more conceivable to replace your previous expansion's gear in the x5-x8 range and definitely by max level. With the new 5 level per expansion system, you almost have to start replacing it by the end of the second level to the beginning of the third level.

I would go about it by making the changes suggested in the BC paragraph and adjusting from there. I think Wrath was ok until you got to the raiding. 10 and 25 were two different raids back then with different gear, unlike today. I think that by making the 10 man tier x equal to 25 man of tier x-1 then you can reasonably deflate item levels. For Cataclysm, it's a bit trickier. You have to start off closer to the end of Wrath's item levels due to the lack of 5 levels. If you keep it as it is today then the only changes you can make are to the end game item levels. With the removal of 85 normals, you can effectively make heroic gear 333, if no other changes to previous expansions are made. The removal of max level normals saves you an entire tier in item levels as it is. Another way to deflate item levels is to take my Wrath example and apply it to cataclysm. Have normal modes for tier x give gear equal to heroic modes of tier x-1.

TLDR: Gear inflation started in BC, was ok in Wrath until hard modes showed up, and got really bad in Cataclysm. It can be fixed without too bad of a headache.
SWTOR is looking better and better...
I have played since Feb. 2007. Watching the game as it progressed I have been quite happy with the rise in our character's power exponentially. This item or stat squishing idea does not sit well with me for a couple of reasons. One, if they ever went with this change, the players who have played before the change will remember what it once was and feel a little short changed even if it's just a matter of perspective. Two, you have to take into account the lore behind warcraft. I hope to see an end all expac where we destroy Sargeras and I dont want to be criting just 50-60-70-or 80,000. A being that powerful to do battle against requires numbers just as large and epic as he. It was mentioned earlier that the large numbers could be abbreviated with "M"s and "K"s and that is fine with me just as long as you can actually have an interface option to see all of the digits too. This solution also seems to not change the way the game is going like this scaling could. The players who would like to see smaller numbers shouldn't be bothered with the large numbers because of the suggested abbreviations. Another thing to think about is the fact that this game revolves around armor and weapons that are imbued with magical properties and with that you must know that magic knows no bounds.


P.S. The plate dps piece with 62k armor with +2500 str +3800 stam got me excited :P
11/05/2011 02:15 AMPosted by Danoth
Don't worry, Blizz won't continue with the squishing. It's too cumbersome for them.


It may be cumbersome now, but it will be easier in the long run.

Currently the game has multiple formulas for armor calculations, because of the stats inflation at endgame. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to maintain the game if it only had one?
all I have to say, Bring on the squish. We'll cope.
so whats the point of being level 85 or 90? how about you just remove the levels period? i think this is a stupid idea. "If the baby isn't crying... don't rock the cradle" and I think you guys are about to shake the !@#$ out of the cradle and piss a lot of players off.
11/05/2011 02:55 AMPosted by Thejeckle
SWTOR is looking better and better...


A lot of things are starting to look better with every "Idea" they come out with.
So if I were in Holy Spec and I exited instance 5 man, I'll go from doing 1300dps to 13dps...awesome!

*hint hint...Make Holy more of a spec to actually be able to kill something if I'm "caught" in Holy spec before you go all out squishing stuff.

I really don't think you understand how this is going to work or ... the point of a healing spec. I thought we were going to have normalization of the entire game so we're not all walking around with inflated stats and gear. I don't think logging into a certain instance will squish your gear.
ever see a wrath holy pally? able to do 3-4 v 1s slowly but surely kill every and every one of them w/o going oom

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