A Brief History of Alterac Valley, Part II

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I applaud you for the time you spent making this thread, very good read. I started playing in early BC, and by the time wrath hit I was only level 42 ( total nooooooooon;p) so I did not experience AV in it's glory days, but I wish I did. I would love for them to bring back old AV :)
AV was the perfect blend of PvP and PvE. I don't see why they wouldn't want to bring it back now, when the focus of Mists is on the Alliance/Horde conflict and the bridging of the gap between PvP and PvE content.
It was a great battleground, with a great story and quests that could be done IN the battleground. The whole feeling felt like a war in that it wasn't over in twenty minutes or less but that it could last for literally hours, with people coming and going (dying and reinforcements).

A few weeks ago we almost got Ivus out but needed just two more to click on the summoning stone.

I loved the old AV, it was just such a great way to kill a few hours. Ah the days of pulling the battlemasters.
Bump for AV!
I am in support of these changes. Because I have played Classic AV it is how I feel that battlegrounds should play. I understand that some players like the faster paced 30 minutes bgs. As Foury said, there are 7 others they could play if AV were changed in accordance with Foury's proposed changes.

In classic AV, you could join in with a few guild mates and decide among yourselves "What part of this battle do we want to assist in? Supplies? Lieutenants? Pushing the front?". I lament every time I see AV appear in the raid finder. Not because it is AV, but because there is no strategy and no pvp. Currently, the best I can hope for in an AV is that one team decides to turtle yielding some player vs player. Otherwise it is a race to the end and it is a race that I find boring.
12/16/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Danlock
The OP and AV vanilla fanboys seem to forget the changes came about because the vast majority of people HATED classic AV

Maybe they hated that they were forced to do it in order to gear up?

the imbalance in the maps,

The changes we're asking for have nothing to do with balance and everything to do with making it more fun.

the turtles

This used to be my favourite part, and a lot of people agree. Now that players aren't required to participate in any particular battleground to get gear, having one longer BG (off the random queue) isn't an issue.

being one shotted by NPCs,

One-shotting NPC's isn't much fun either, but Blizzard doesn't seem to know the phrase "happy medium."

the exploits

These could be fixed without destroying the integrity of the battleground.

classic AV was avoided at all cost, except by a few people

Current AV is avoided at all costs (or at least complained incessantly about), except by a few people.

More than just a handful of people have posted their support of Classic-style AV. Remember, we're asking for the classic style with modern innovations, not an exact clone.

"Save Alterac Valley Letter Writing Campaign"
"Why Isn't AV Fun Anymore?"
One of the few wall of texts I actually fully read. I joined the game in 2.2, and 2.3 hit before I knew a ton about how anything in the game functioned, but I have heard stories throughout my time playing, and I like the idea of it. I have always been fine with really long BGs provided it's fun.

Anyway, you got my support.
The reason for the changes to AV is the same as the reason for the introduction of LFR: the selective perception by Blizzard of motives that revolve around "progress" in ways that are clearly defined within the game world. This is the basis for the "structural homogenization" described in the other thread.

Ultimately, this is a problem that builds on itself as mistakes due to a complacent attitude and focusing on feedback from a small section of the playerbase results in an unexpected response from the entire playerbase or in subscription cancellations, which in turn leads to further attempts to clearly define the ways players benefit from the game and how further development can provide access to those things.

As a result, benefits from playing which cannot be clearly defined, due to residing in social interactions with other people inside and outside of the game and not in an "item" or in "reward points", have had an increasingly minor role in the overt planning for a majority of the development work taking place for the game.

In the case of both AV and LFR, Blizzard has forced players to concentrate on achieving a "current" level of character progression before they can participate by making that progression both trivial to require in terms of skill (but not time) and deliberately making prior items and progression obsolete with each major content patch in order to increase "accessibility". The root philosophy which has justified these actions despite the unexpected lack of popularity with the playerbase (as seen in subscriptions) is the idea that both PvP and PvE should provide an accurate 'signal' of a player's ability in terms of their raw success rate at those aspects of the game, which in turn requires assumptions on the performance-increasing statistics of a character prior to the inclusion of variable player skill.

The specific measurements for those two aspects of the game are seen by the developers as being, respectively, the raw performance of a PvP team within an ELO-type rating system that does not account for differences in gear and the order of completion for newly introduced PvE raid content. Changes in the game are currently made with the necessary condition that they do not decrease the accuracy of these standards of measurement.

Changing the idea of what constitutes an accurate signal is, therefore, a prerequisite to any changes to AV that make it more than a PvE race, since this idea of measuring PvE and PvP ability with as high an accuracy as possible is a major unstated motivation for the current apathy to making changes that many players state they would enjoy.

This is also explained from a somewhat different perspective in this blog post:

I'll have to sleep on a more detailed response to that beautiful wall of text. In the meantime, anyone looking for the "structural homogenization" to which Nemue is referring should read "A Treatise of Bluetip Threshers."
"Save Alterac Valley Letter Writing Campaign"
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
I just did my first AV where Alliance turtle...with out Horde makeing us turtle. Was the best time on Alliance and we won.
AV was awesome. It's still my favorite when there is actually pvp and not the zerg fest. I love the long battles on the bridge. MCing an orc on his wolf mount off the bridge is hilarious. lol

I would love it if they could somehow bring more pvping back into it and not just the zerg fests where players can't stand it you defend a tower or go with a back capping group. The huge battles are so much fun. :D

edit: there are times I didn't care whether we won or lost when it turns into a huge battle. I miss the days of when we summoned the elementals, etc. I've played AV on both sides and had fun the same. :)
12/16/2011 10:13 PMPosted by Foury
I'll have to sleep on a more detailed response to that beautiful wall of text. In the meantime, anyone looking for the "structural homogenization" to which Nemue is referring should read "A Treatise of Bluetip Threshers."

Well, I had another thread on the whole gear farming thing and how to avoid it (since the honor/conquest point progression is only because of JP/VP) but Blizzard deleted it this morning.

This thread talks more about world PvP, which of course was similar to AV in that it was about fun instead of rewards, but it doesn't describe the solution in detail: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3765088846

None of that would be absolutely necessary for the suggested changes to AV described in this thread. But it would certainly help to get more people interested in playing AV for fun instead of as the PvP equivalent of doing LFR for loot.
I read every word of your post I applaud your time and effort put into this and, I agree completely. Although I did play in Vanilla I did not level up fast enough to enjoy the original AV however it sounds amazing. I feel sad now that I missed out on those Epic battles often going on for days. Blizzard really needs to consider this. 10/10
+1 i would like the warmasters to be buffed SIGNIFICANTLY each patch as to scale with the gear levels (currently you can zerg the boss flat without killing anything from the start)

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